# Is anti-Catholic bigotry hate speech? **URL:** \ **Category:** About This Message Board\ **Created:** [June 26, 2022, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anti-catholic-bigotry-hate-speech/966877 "2022-06-26T04:34:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2022, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anti-catholic-bigotry-hate-speech/966877/81 "2022-06-27T22:06:51Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > When I, as a Catholic, hear someone saying that they hate Catholics, I don’t need to fear that they’re likely to try to hunt me down, or kill me, or my family, because in modern American society, people hunting people down because they’re Catholic is very rare. Sure. That’s why it isn’t hate speech. But it doesn’t make it more useful to go the broad brush route. And you are perfectly entitled to think less of them for going after an entire group when the problem is a certain specific subset. I know people who hate Catholics. I don’t hang around with them, even though I’m not Catholic. Catholics have actually faced persecution in the past, especially here in the US (and definitely the UK). Just because they won’t try to kill you **now** doesn’t make it okay. It just means it’s not quite as bad as it is for other groups. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2022, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anti-catholic-bigotry-hate-speech/966877/82 "2022-06-27T23:57:30Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > I think the issue here is whether we express our justified hatred in an appropriate manner toward the people who actually espouse these despicable views, without framing it in a manner that can be interpreted as unjustified prejudice against an entire class of people. Well put. (And you may be calling “justified hatred” what I’d call “condemnation and censure” but that seems more a matter of the way we each define terms.) > [@BigT](#): > > Hate speech is hate speech. But “a bunch of fucking old white men” is not hate speech. Right. Expanding the notion of “hate speech” to encompass so much that _anything_ that can be claimed to be disparaging to _any_ defined group, no matter how broadly or narrowly defined, gets called “hate speech”, is just a way to render the concept pointless. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2022, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anti-catholic-bigotry-hate-speech/966877/83 "2022-06-28T00:46:18Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Hate speech is hate speech. But “a bunch of fucking old white men” is not hate speech. That group is not an oppressed class, and that statement does not contribute to their oppression. The “oppressed class” thing is, IMHO bullshit, just a way to justify hate speech. Or are we gonna have a rating system, grading each religion, race. etc on how much it is oppressed? > [@BigT](#): > > Anti-Irish sentiment? Sure, that’s hate speech. That is a historically oppressed class. You can also make a case for “rednecks” and such. So are Catholics. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2022, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anti-catholic-bigotry-hate-speech/966877/84 "2022-06-28T04:28:27Z")
> [@Paul\_was\_in\_Saudi](#): > > What is a harmless joke? One that calls Jews greedy? Gay people diseased? Black people lazy? 🙄 > **[Flying Spaghetti Monster](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster)** > > The Flying Spaghetti Monster (FSM) is the deity of the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster, or Pastafarianism, a parodic new religious movement that promotes a light-hearted view of religion. It originated in opposition to the teaching of intelligent design in public schools in the United States. According to adherents, Pastafarianism (a portmanteau of pasta and Rastafarianism) is a "real, legitimate religion, as much as any other". It has received some limited recognition as such. The "F... ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2022, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anti-catholic-bigotry-hate-speech/966877/85 "2022-06-28T05:02:25Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > When I, as a Catholic, hear someone saying that they hate Catholics, I don’t need to fear that they’re likely to try to hunt me down, or kill me, or my family, because in modern American society, people hunting people down because they’re Catholic is very rare. Some people are targeting Catholic Justices with threats of violence, including an attempted assassination. Catholic churches are being vandalized, including an alleged arson where the church was burned to the ground. This is a real issue, in this time, not 100 years ago. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2022, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anti-catholic-bigotry-hate-speech/966877/86 "2022-06-28T12:15:37Z")
Nobody’s targeting Catholic justices because they’re Catholic. Catholics are over a fifth of the country; of course a significant number of violent events are going to involve us. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_was\_in\_Saudi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b77776/32.png) [@Paul\_was\_in\_Saudi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_was_in_Saudi)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2022, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anti-catholic-bigotry-hate-speech/966877/87 "2022-06-28T14:15:42Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > 🙄 Now that just shows you what I know. I would have supposed that bigotry is bigotry, even if has training wheels to help beginners. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2022, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anti-catholic-bigotry-hate-speech/966877/88 "2022-06-28T14:24:09Z")
And stealing is stealing, but if you can’t see the difference between stealing a candy bar and stealing a car I can see where you might have trouble understanding the difference between “punching up” and “punching down”. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_was\_in\_Saudi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b77776/32.png) [@Paul\_was\_in\_Saudi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_was_in_Saudi)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2022, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anti-catholic-bigotry-hate-speech/966877/89 "2022-06-28T16:01:15Z")
I am glad we agree. Bigotry is bigotry. Stealing is stealing. Punching is punching. We probably ought not to do any of these without sufficient reflection and purpose. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2022, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anti-catholic-bigotry-hate-speech/966877/90 "2022-06-28T16:03:57Z")
> [@Paul\_was\_in\_Saudi](#): > > I am glad we agree. We do NOT agree, and I do not appreciate it when people pull stunts like this. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2022, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anti-catholic-bigotry-hate-speech/966877/91 "2022-06-28T16:07:14Z")
Religions are a belief, they are not an innate identity. Beliefs are made up of a collection of ideas and practices, ideas and practices should always be subject to critique. I frankly do not think this phrase is hate speech at all: > evil Papist ring kissing Mary worshipers I think it is mean, inflammatory and rude, and I’m fine with it not being allowed, but there is no legitimacy to the idea that you shouldn’t be able to criticize Catholics _for the simple fact of their belief system._ Now, critique and verbal aggression are far different from some other activities which affect public policy (outside of this board), to make society functional and fair, people should not be subject to workplace harassment / job discrimination based on religion, the government should not discriminate against them based on their religion etc. In a private venue like this that can set its own rules, it is my opinion that insults based on someone’s innate traits, like gender, race etc should be considered hate speech–and personal insults shouldn’t be permitted at all when directed at other posters, but I really don’t think attacking the belief system of a religious person should be seen as hate speech. Functionally, I think it is rare that such attacks would avoid running afoul of other rules like rules against direct insults, and mod instructions against excessively inflammatory posts, but I do think it important to say finding Catholics odious because of their veneration of Mary is an entirely legitimate point of view, not bigotry (or any other part of Catholicism you care to take issue with.) ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_was\_in\_Saudi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b77776/32.png) [@Paul\_was\_in\_Saudi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_was_in_Saudi)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2022, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anti-catholic-bigotry-hate-speech/966877/92 "2022-06-28T17:09:43Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > We do NOT agree, and I do not appreciate it when people pull stunts like this. OK. Bigotry is not bigotry. Stealing is not stealing and of course punching is not punching. ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Mouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mighty_mouse/32/7776_2.png) [@Mighty\_Mouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Mouse)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2022, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anti-catholic-bigotry-hate-speech/966877/93 "2022-06-28T17:11:14Z")
That’s not what he said either and you very well know that. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_was\_in\_Saudi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b77776/32.png) [@Paul\_was\_in\_Saudi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_was_in_Saudi)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2022, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anti-catholic-bigotry-hate-speech/966877/94 "2022-06-28T17:12:41Z")
I truly do not understand what he means. ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Mouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mighty_mouse/32/7776_2.png) [@Mighty\_Mouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Mouse)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2022, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anti-catholic-bigotry-hate-speech/966877/95 "2022-06-28T17:13:48Z")
Saying something that you know perfectly well that he did NOT mean is not a good way to clarify things. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2022, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anti-catholic-bigotry-hate-speech/966877/96 "2022-06-28T20:02:31Z")
It is. Like up thread people said Hate vs the Irish would be wrong, as they were Oppressed in America. So were the Italians. Why? The main reason is that they were Catholics. **They believed the Irish would impose the Catholic canon as the law of the land**. > **[When America Despised the Irish: The 19th Century’s Refugee Crisis | HISTORY](https://www.history.com/news/when-america-despised-the-irish-the-19th-centurys-refugee-crisis)** > > Forced from their homeland because of famine and political upheaval, the Irish endured vehement discrimination before making their way into the American mainstream. > [@Czarcasm](#): > > And stealing is stealing, but if you can’t see the difference between stealing a candy bar and stealing a car Of course we can. But promoting either sort of theft is against the rules here on the SDMB. Go ahead, open a thread on "_How best to steal candy bars from stores"._ And here I’d expect the sentence here would range from a Note, to a Warning, To Suspension , etc. , just like thefts IRL. Yeah, so just like IRL, we should apply _appropriate sanctions._ Bigotry is Bigotry, hate speech is hate speech. But the mods have wide discretion. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2022, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anti-catholic-bigotry-hate-speech/966877/97 "2022-06-28T22:33:55Z")
I suppose satire isn’t satire, though. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2022, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anti-catholic-bigotry-hate-speech/966877/98 "2022-06-28T22:38:08Z")
[![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/L_mrNQBLSMU/hqdefault.jpg "homer simpson being sarcastic.wmv") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_mrNQBLSMU) ---
**Author:** ![engineer\_comp\_geek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/engineer_comp_geek/32/504_2.png) [@engineer\_comp\_geek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/engineer_comp_geek)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2022, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anti-catholic-bigotry-hate-speech/966877/99 "2022-06-29T01:14:20Z")
**Moderator Note** > [@Paul\_was\_in\_Saudi](#): > > OK. Bigotry is not bigotry. Stealing is not stealing and of course punching is not punching. Sarcasm and snark are rarely helpful in ATMB. Instead, snarky comments are more likely to throw the thread off of the rails. Let’s try to keep this one on the rails, please. Let’s all dial back the sarcasm and snark. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2022, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anti-catholic-bigotry-hate-speech/966877/100 "2022-06-29T01:18:44Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Some people are targeting Catholic Justices with threats of violence, including an attempted assassination. Catholic churches are being vandalized, including an alleged arson where the church was burned to the ground. Meanwhile the government has spent the last couple of decades actively surveilling mosques, and Americans have been murdered because they’re Muslim. The question isn’t whether there’s any anti-Catholic violence at all in the US. The question is whether historical/social context makes them exactly the same. It doesn’t. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anti-catholic-bigotry-hate-speech/966877.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anti-catholic-bigotry-hate-speech/966877.md?page=6)