# Is Anti-Semitism a serious problem in Norway? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 20, 2011, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anti-semitism-a-serious-problem-in-norway/589733 "2011-07-20T17:08:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Septima](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@Septima](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Septima)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2011, 9:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anti-semitism-a-serious-problem-in-norway/589733/181 "2011-07-28T09:50:54Z")
Did the study just ask whether the high schoolers had heard the word “Jew” being used as an insult, or was it more specific as to contexts? Because we have quite a lot movies, plays and literature set during WWII, quite few of which contains this. So yes, I, a Norwegian, have heard the phrase “jewish swine” being hurled at another person - during a stage production of Anne Frank. Never in real life. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2011, 11:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anti-semitism-a-serious-problem-in-norway/589733/182 "2011-07-28T11:43:22Z")
> [@Dick\_Dastardly](#): > > How do you know why Dershowitz is criticising Tutu? He has a long MO of using antisemitism smears on anybody who criticises the Israeli government or policies. This instance is just one of many. > > You’d have to place drshowitz’s Tutu quotes in their proper context for you to make those claims. I’m sure that they’re just fine in their proper context and don’t trust dershowitz’s “quotes” as they are. This is the guy who supposedly never calls Israel-criticisers antisemitc yet has a long record of doing so. This seems like one of those strange and interesting situations where many examples of individual action and words are built up into a history and campaign of a particular behaviour; then, when those individual examples are gradually refuted or whittled down, the claimed history itself remains untouched and as viable as before. And finally the history itself is used to back up the individual claims. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2011, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anti-semitism-a-serious-problem-in-norway/589733/183 "2011-07-28T14:13:51Z")
Well, except for the fact that not one single example was refuted or whittled down and all we have is Dick’s attempt to gainsay it with a variation on “Nuh unh! Dershowitz is a poopy head!” But yeah, other than that, sure. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2011, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anti-semitism-a-serious-problem-in-norway/589733/184 "2011-07-28T14:44:37Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > This seems like one of those strange and interesting situations where many examples of individual action and words are built up into a history and campaign of a particular behaviour; then, when those individual examples are gradually refuted or whittled down, the claimed history itself remains untouched and as viable as before. And finally the history itself is used to back up the individual claims. Are you referring to Dick’s claims about Dershowitz or Dershowitz’s claims about Tutu? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2011, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anti-semitism-a-serious-problem-in-norway/589733/185 "2011-07-28T14:46:59Z")
That’s actually a good point, I may have misread it. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2011, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anti-semitism-a-serious-problem-in-norway/589733/186 "2011-07-28T17:10:58Z")
I meant **Dick’s** claims about Dershowitz. Sorry to be unclear. ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2011, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anti-semitism-a-serious-problem-in-norway/589733/187 "2011-07-28T17:44:21Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > So, you can “hate Judaism” (and the Jews who hold to it) and that’s somehow okay? Nonsense. Bigotry is bigotry. By that standard, your medieval inquisitor wasn’t “anti-Semitic”, since he liked Jews just fine if they converted. :rolleyes: > > I have no idea what the author’s personal religion is if any, but there is nothing in his screed that could possibly be reconciled with atheism. Not many atheists go around saying stuff like “The Kingdom of God is compassion and forgiveness”. 😃 > > This isn’t an atheist’s calling-out of all religions as bad and wrong. Criticizing Israel on that basis would be dumb enough - as I’ve said, Israel is not a theocratic society and the majority of Zionists were and are in fact atheists themselves (Zionism being an ethno-nationalist , and not a religious, movement) - but it is ten times as dumb, and ten times as bigoted, from an expressly Christian perspective. > > Face it, the author of this piece is a bigot, or at least, he wrote as one. Israel might not be theocratic and the majority of Zionists may be atheists but the loudest voices from Israeli governing coalitions are always the god’s chosen people ones. Anyway, here’s the author of the article explaining in hiis own words why he wrote what he wrote. Let’s also acknowledge that he wrote lots of pro-Israel stuff in his article too : [http://sirocco.blogsome.com/2006/08/12/jostein-gaarder-clarifies-view-on-israel-jews/](http://sirocco.blogsome.com/2006/08/12/jostein-gaarder-clarifies-view-on-israel-jews/) ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2011, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anti-semitism-a-serious-problem-in-norway/589733/188 "2011-07-28T17:51:16Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > You’ve yet to produce any evidence that the study was faked and your link to Glenn Greenwald doesn’t help since Greenwald never accuses the ADL of falsifying studies. > > Also, you refused to answer the question so I’ll ask it again. > Why did you decide to not that the people who conducted the study were “Jewish Americans”? > > Would you have listed them as “Italian-Americans” if they’d been of Italian descent? > > Please have the courage to answer rather than dodging yet again. You have yet to produce any evidence that the study was legit. Based on the fact that a bullshit Jewish lobbying organisation got some former employees who run a similar bullshit lobbying organisation to do a poll for them and not an actual legit polling firm then that says all you really need to know. I called them Jewish-Americans and Likudniks to make my point that they were exact same ideological bedfellows of the ADL and thus not exactly impartial observers when it came to producing a poll. If they had been Italian-Americans, and betters still, if they’d been Italian-American professional pollsters instead of Likudnik Jewish lobbyists then they’d be in a position to produce a poll which could be seen as unbiased or even not complete bullshit. But they weren’t they were Likudniks who used to work for the ADL so I thought it was relevant to point it out. What part of this don’t you understand? ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2011, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anti-semitism-a-serious-problem-in-norway/589733/189 "2011-07-28T17:55:05Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Readers will note that Dick has immediately gone and found a Token Jew, and made a point to advertise him as such. Why, he’s not just an editor for Time, he’s not just South African, damnit, he’s a Jew! Obviously, for Dick, there’s some reason that this should be mentioned. > > Of course, readers will also note that quotes and facts were provided, in Dick’s own cite that ironically showed that Dershowitz’ complaints about Tutu were based on blatantly anti-Semitic things that Tutu had said rather than simple political disagreement as Dick had imagined. Again we see that even if someone does say something obviously anti-Semitic, that the response is not only to defend them (as long as they’re also criticizing Israel) but to hop up on the cross and claim that it’s impossible to criticize Israel without being oppressed by those nasty thought police. > > And whatever you do, don’t read the actual cite to see that the reason he’s criticizing Tutu is all of Tutu’s blatantly anti-Semitic public statements. Instead, trust Dick. It’s where the smart money is at. > > As pointed out, Dershowitz has criticized Israeli governmental policies. Also, still no cite, and the only one that Dick provided refuted his own claims. Funny, that. It’s almost as if there’s a bullshit meme that you can’t criticize Israel without being called an anti-Semite, and Dick is going for it full steam ahead regardless of its truth value. > > Piling absurdity upon absurdity, now we’ve gone past the “everybody is called anti-Semitic if they criticize Israel ever!” meme to the tacit claim that nobody who criticized Israel is ever an anti-semite, and if there happen to be a bunch of 'em and you point it out, well, then you’ve got a record of doing so and then that just proves that you weren’t objecting to their bigotry, but their politics. > > Naturally. > :rolleyes: Yeah, even the ADL realised they were on a loser trying to call Tutu antisemitic. They knew they’d be completely losing their target audience on that one and they’d only be convincing the dead enders. I’m happy to let the ADL’s decision to stop smearing Tutu provide my answer on this one. If you want to continue to stand on the extreme edge where even the ADL refuse to go and continue to call Tutu antisemitic then go right ahead. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2011, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anti-semitism-a-serious-problem-in-norway/589733/190 "2011-07-28T18:14:17Z")
> [@Dick\_Dastardly](#): > > I called them Jewish-Americans and Likudniks to make my point that they were exact same ideological bedfellows of the ADL and thus not exactly impartial observers when it came to producing a poll. **If they had been Italian-Americans, and betters still, if they’d been Italian-American professional pollsters instead of Likudnik Jewish lobbyists then they’d be in a position to produce a poll which could be seen as unbiased or even not complete bullshit**. So you’re saying the pollsters aren’t reliable because they’re Jews and you’re specifically stating that had they “been Italian-Americans…then they’d be in a position to produce a poll which could be seen as unbiased or even not complete bullshit.” Claiming people aren’t reliable because they are Jews but that they’d be reliable if they were gentiles is a pretty classic example of anti-Semitism. > [@](#): > > You have yet to produce any evidence that the study was legit. The study was produced by the ADL a reputable group which, as BG pointed out is considered one of the best groups around for developing studies on racism and anti-Semitism. > [@](#): > > Based on the fact that **a bullshit Jewish lobbying organisation** got some former employees who run a similar bullshit lobbying organisation to do a poll for them and not an actual legit polling firm then that says all you really need to know. Yet again, you seem to use the fact that the ADL is made up of Jews as proof they can’t be trusted. Again, I’m not sure how this can’t be viewed as bigotry. Certainly anyone who insisted that the NAACP can’t be trusted because it’s made up of African-Americans would be viewed as a bigot. ---
**Author:** ![hildea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ebca7d/32.png) [@hildea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hildea)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2011, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anti-semitism-a-serious-problem-in-norway/589733/191 "2011-07-28T18:14:28Z")
**Septima** , the phrasing for that question was: “Have you experienced any of the following in your school?” where one of the alternatives were “Jew has been used to describe someone negatively” (“Jøde har blitt brukt for å beskrive noen negativt”). The introduction to the survey stated that its purpose was to examine racism and antisemittism in schools. So I’d think very few would think insults in WWII films were relevant to the question. The report is called “Survey of knowledge and attitudes on racism and antisemttism in Oslo schools” (“Kartlegging av kunnskaper og holdinger på området rasisme og antisemittisme i Osloskolen”), and was made in april 2011 by the municipial office for education in Oslo. The complete report (PDF in Norwegian) is here: [http://www.utdanningsetaten.oslo.kommune.no/getfile.php/utdanningsetaten%20(UDE)/Internett%20(UDE)/PED/Dok/Rapport\_UDA\_7.6.2011.pdf](http://www.utdanningsetaten.oslo.kommune.no/getfile.php/utdanningsetaten%20%28UDE%29/Internett%20%28UDE%29/PED/Dok/Rapport_UDA_7.6.2011.pdf) The survey included a few in depth interviews, as well as a questionaire answered by ~5600 children in 8th-10th grade (13 to 16 years old). They were asked about harassment based on both race and religion, asking about specific types of harassment from nasty comments to being beaten up. Some of the findings: [ul] [li]15% had been harassed at least once because of national background. 6.9% experienced this 2-3 times a month or more often.[/li][li]9% had been harassed because of religion, 3.5% experienced this 2-3 times a month or more.[/li][li]Percentage of children who had been harassed 2-3 times a month or more because of religion:[/li][list][li]Jews 33.3%[/li][li]Buddhists 9.1%[/li][li]Other 6.9%[/li][li]Muslims 5.3%[/li][li]Hindus 2.5%[/li][li]Christians 2.2%[/li][li]No religion 1.6%[/ul][/li][li]51.5% of all children had heard the word “jew” used negatively[/li][li]35.2% had heard negative comments about jews[/li][/LIST] Jews were the smallest group, only 36 respondents (complete list in table 4.2.2.4 “Religion/tro” in the PDF), so there’s probably more uncertainity in those numbers than the others. Still, I think these findings show that yes, antisemittism is a problem in Norway. Another relevant report is “It can happen again” (“Det kan skje igjen”. PDF in Norwegian: [http://www.regjeringen.no/upload/KD/Vedlegg/Grunnskole/Eidsvagutvalget/Eidsvag\_rapport\_Det\_kan\_skje\_igjen.pdf](http://www.regjeringen.no/upload/KD/Vedlegg/Grunnskole/Eidsvagutvalget/Eidsvag_rapport_Det_kan_skje_igjen.pdf) ), which is a government report about what can be done in schools to fight antisemittism and racism. It mentions a survey in 2009 where 53% said they would not be positive to a muslim son-in-law or daugther-in-law, and 26% would not be positive to a jewish son-in-law/daugther-in-law. This report also says that there are few hate crimes which can be connected to antisemittism in Norway, but that this number increases a lot in times when the Israel-Palestine conflict escalates. The report states that “There are many indications that most of the people who commit antisemittic crimes are marginalized white youth. But also immigrant youth who fall outside of society are in this group.” A third report is “Ung, norsk og svart” (“Young, Norwegian, and Black”, PDF in Norwegian [http://www.omod.no/images/ung%20svar%20og%20norsk.pdf](http://www.omod.no/images/ung%20svar%20og%20norsk.pdf) ). I haven’t read that one yet. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2011, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anti-semitism-a-serious-problem-in-norway/589733/192 "2011-07-28T18:19:50Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > I meant **Dick’s** claims about Dershowitz. Sorry to be unclear. I think that the problem was that you used the word “history” instead of “fiction” 😉 Anyways, so now we have some nonsense that Dick has helpfully provided us which doesn’t, at all, erase the actual anti-Semitic things that Gaarder said. But, dontcha know, he originally called it “God’s Chosen People” because he wanted to address Christian Zionism. Which, naturally, he spent so much time on in the original piece. Funny how if you don’t write something anti-Semitic, people generally won’t call you out for anti-Semitism (claims of the “woe is us, we are being persecuted!” brigade to the contrary), but if you do you’re reduced to pretzeling yourself in order to explain that you didn’t mean what you said, and there’s a good reason that you didn’t actually ever say what you really meant… sugartits. > [@FinnAgain](#): > > Then they’ll claim that it’s impossible to criticize Israel without being labelled an anti-semite. (Tell me newcomer, can you please cite all the times I’ve been called an anti-semite when I’ve criticized Israel on this board? How about just one cite, eh? No? How about DSeid? How about Jackmanni? How about Malthus? How about Captain Amazing? How about. Ibn? No? Not even one? Funny, that…) Sometimes they’ll heap another bit of nonsense on the pile and allege that now we can’t accurately talk about anti-Semitism because we’ve [somehow] “devalued” it by all this fictional criticism-of-Israel-is-anti-Semitism talk. > > If they’re really, really into nonsense and can’t cogently support their position, they’ll also claim that its the Jews’ fault that people are anti Semitic anyways. Or Israel’s fault. Or whatever. > [@Gaarder](#): > > Triggering anti-Semitism > > And finally: It can be outright irresponsible to prematurely accuse a debater of anti-Semitism — simply because it may serve to legitimize and trigger anti-Semitism. (If he or she is an anti-Semite, hey, maybe it ain’t so bad….) Yeep. > [@Dick\_Dastardly](#): > > You have yet to produce any evidence that the study was legit. Shall we start running a count as to how many days it’s taken for Dick to provide even the basest bit of evidence that there’s any actual reason to distrust the study’s results, other than that he doesn’t like them and that a (gasp!) Jewish advocacy organization commissioned them? > [@Dick\_Dastardly](#): > > I called them Jewish-Americans and Likudniks to make my point that they were exact same ideological bedfellows of the ADL Yeah, because you know _those Jewish-Americans_… :smack: [QUOTE=Dick Dastardly;14075040] If they had been Italian-Americans, and betters still, if they’d been Italian-American professional pollsters instead of Likudnik Jewish lobbyists then they’d be in a position to produce a poll which could be seen as unbiased or even not complete bullshit. [/quote] My, what an interesting and revealing statement. I wonder if there are any other ethnic groups we cannot trust to run polls. And again, simply being “Likudnik” isn’t good enough, he needs to mention that they’re “Likudnik Jewish”. Shall we wait on a cite for that claim too, by the way? So far we’ve had Dick’s cite on how Dershowitz allegedly called Tutu an anti-Semite simply because Tutu held different politics than he does… which upon even cursory examination was revealed to show that Dick’s argument was full of shit and Tutu was called on the carpet because he said a lot of blatantly anti-Semitic things. Of course, that raises the obvious question as to how Dick made such an elementary and blatant error in the first place, and how that error just happened to play into his odd little narrative. Even now, readers will note that instead of cleaving to accuracy, Dick is rather obviously resorting to personal smears and alleging that folks are “deadenders” if they object to Tutu’s blatantly obviously anti-Semitic rhetoric. Which, we will all remember, was only alleged because Tutu criticized Israel and not because of all the anti-Semitic things he said. Which we should ignore anyways. Of course. Do we have any reason here, sans a cite, to believe that Dick’s charges of vile “Likudnik” influence on the study are at all true? ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2011, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anti-semitism-a-serious-problem-in-norway/589733/193 "2011-07-28T18:44:56Z")
> [@Dick\_Dastardly](#): > > Israel might not be theocratic and the majority of Zionists may be atheists but the loudest voices from Israeli governing coalitions are always the god’s chosen people ones. Anyway, here’s the author of the article explaining in hiis own words why he wrote what he wrote. Let’s also acknowledge that he wrote lots of pro-Israel stuff in his article too : > > [http://sirocco.blogsome.com/2006/08/12/jostein-gaarder-clarifies-view-on-israel-jews/](http://sirocco.blogsome.com/2006/08/12/jostein-gaarder-clarifies-view-on-israel-jews/) Man, in his attempt at an “apology”, he just digs himself in deeper. > [@](#): > > But that was not the point. Only in regard to the very notion of “the Kingdom of God” do I believe that Jesu’ preaching and what I take to be Christianity have had a more humanistic interpretation than the late-Jewish, and now Christian Zionist, notion of a political restoration of the Kingdom of David as a “Kingdom of God” for the people of Israel. I am here referring to different interpretations of the religious message — be they Christian or Jewish — and to the problems we all encounter when extreme interpretations are put into life. The whole notion that his target is in part “Christian Zionism” is of course complete nonsense - he never once mentions it in his original piece - but even so, this whole “kingdom of god” stuff being somehow a “late-Jewish” one is total and complete bollocks, a straw-man of the highest order. Not only is Zionism not inherently religious, but even if it were, no reputable or major sect of Judaism considers Israel the “kingdom of god”, the notion is blasphemous (especially) to religious Jews! Try telling an Orthodox Rabbi that Israel is the “kingdom of God”. 😃 So - stupidity piled on anti-Semitic tropes and of course Christian superiority. And that in what was meant to be his “apology” for the first screed. Remarkable. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2011, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anti-semitism-a-serious-problem-in-norway/589733/194 "2011-07-28T18:47:31Z")
You only say that because he disagrees with Israel!!! And/or possibly because you are Jewish-Canadian and/or a dastardly Likudnik. ---
**Author:** ![Septima](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@Septima](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Septima)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2011, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anti-semitism-a-serious-problem-in-norway/589733/195 "2011-07-28T20:33:18Z")
Thank you **hildea** , that makes more sense. ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2011, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anti-semitism-a-serious-problem-in-norway/589733/196 "2011-07-29T16:59:07Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > So you’re saying the pollsters aren’t reliable because they’re Jews and you’re specifically stating that had they “been Italian-Americans…then they’d be in a position to produce a poll which could be seen as unbiased or even not complete bullshit.” > > Claiming people aren’t reliable because they are Jews but that they’d be reliable if they were gentiles is a pretty classic example of anti-Semitism. > > The study was produced by the ADL a reputable group which, as BG pointed out is considered one of the best groups around for developing studies on racism and anti-Semitism. > > Yet again, you seem to use the fact that the ADL is made up of Jews as proof they can’t be trusted. > > Again, I’m not sure how this can’t be viewed as bigotry. > > Certainly anyone who insisted that the NAACP can’t be trusted because it’s made up of African-Americans would be viewed as a bigot. I’m not saying that they aren’t reliable or can’t be trusted because they’re Jews. i’m saying they’re unrel;iable and can’t be trusted because an ideologically extreme outfit used another ideologically extreme outfit with zero history of producing polls to produce a poll. Whether they’re jewish or Italian or anything else then those facts destroy any credibility the poll might have. What part of this don’t you understand? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2011, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anti-semitism-a-serious-problem-in-norway/589733/197 "2011-07-29T17:05:58Z")
> [@Dick\_Dastardly](#): > > I’m not saying that they aren’t reliable or can’t be trusted because they’re Jews. i’m saying they’re unrel;iable and can’t be trusted because an ideologically extreme outfit used another ideologically extreme outfit with zero history of producing polls to produce a poll. Whether they’re jewish or Italian or anything else then those facts destroy any credibility the poll might have. What part of this don’t you understand? I don’t understand this part: “Whether they’re jewish or Italian or anything else then those facts destroy any credibility the poll might have.” Maybe there’s a word or two missing, but I’m not sure what that sentence is trying to say. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2011, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anti-semitism-a-serious-problem-in-norway/589733/198 "2011-07-29T17:11:39Z")
> [@Dick\_Dastardly](#): > > I’m not saying that they aren’t reliable or can’t be trusted because they’re Jews. i’m saying they’re unrel;iable and can’t be trusted because an ideologically extreme outfit used another ideologically extreme outfit with zero history of producing polls to produce a poll. Whether they’re jewish or Italian or anything else then those facts destroy any credibility the poll might have. What part of this don’t you understand? Nice try but you specifically said that if they’d been “Italian-Americans” then they would have been more reliable. > [@](#): > > had they been Italian-Americans…then they’d be in a position to produce a poll which could be seen as unbiased or even not complete bullshit. Also if you’re now backtracking and claiming their ethnicity is irrelevant then why did you feel the need to draw attention to the fact that the people who did the poll were “Jewish Americans”? Look, if you don’t think Jewish people can be trusted, just say so. ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2011, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anti-semitism-a-serious-problem-in-norway/589733/199 "2011-07-29T17:16:03Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I don’t understand this part: “Whether they’re jewish or Italian or anything else then those facts destroy any credibility the poll might have.” > > Maybe there’s a word or two missing, but I’m not sure what that sentence is trying to say. I’m saying that it’s irrelevant that the variouas parties are Jewish. I’m saying that because outfit one, an organisation with a history of being quite ideologically extreme hires outfit two, a lobbying/political consultancy made up of ex-employees from outfit one and an organisation with zero history in producijng polls, to produce a poll for outfit one, then the whole thing has zero credibility. It doesn’t matter iof the two outfits are jewish or Italian or anything else heritage, the thing stinks. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2011, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anti-semitism-a-serious-problem-in-norway/589733/200 "2011-07-29T17:19:47Z")
Eh, beyond the fact that it’s a bit of word-salad, it’s the same nonsense argument he tried to pull with Dershowitz. He’s saying that no matter what their ethnicity is (although for some reason, previously, he felt the need to highlight it, repeatedly), we can’t trust a poll they conduct because… well, he won’t answer that, just imply something dastardly is going on. And, of course, he won’t give us any real reason to assume that the ADL are a pack of dastardly “Likudniks”, other than that he says so. However, he recently claimed that Dershowitz is some sort of rabid, slanderous nut who’ll call anybody who simply criticizes Israel an “anti-Semite”. Dick’s argument does not take into account that Dershowitz, himself, has criticized Israel. To support this spurious charge against Dershowitz, Dick provided an op-ed in which Dershowitz took Desmond Tutu to task for a slew of obviously, blatantly anti-Semitic things that Tutu said. Contradicted by his own cite, Dick then maintains that of course Dershowitz must have been calling Tutu an anti-Semite simply because Tutu criticized Israel (and tacitly, demanding that we ignore Tutu’s own anti-Semitic statements)… because, well, that’s just what Dershowitz does. Still no cite to that effect, of coruse, showing Dershowitz doing that even one single time. But, ya know, it must be true. Otherwise Dick’s argument would fall apart and he’d have to actually condemn Tutu’s anti-Semitism rather than repeating the persecution-meme that all of Israel’s critics are horribly oppressed and cruelly called anti-Semites for the mere act of disagreeing with Israeli policy. Woe. Woe! Now we’re told that there’s a “Jewish-American” group of “Likudniks” who conducted a poll, but we can’t trust the results… not because there’s any charge of malfeasance or any actual methodological flaws that would invalidate the entire poll, but just because they’re “Jewish-American” “Likudniks”. Of course, their dastardly “Likuddytasticness” has gone uncited, as well. Of course, Dick has gone on record supporting the genocidal racists of Hezbollah and Hamas, so why we should discard an actual poll’s results just because someone (allegedly) agrees with Likud’s stance on certain issues, but Dick’s opinions should be listened to… well, that’s anybody’s guess. Funny, that. Readers would probably be well served in taking united claims about the evils of Dershowitz or the ADL, or whoever, with a grain of salt. And definitely checking the sparse cites which are actually provided, in order to verify them. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anti-semitism-a-serious-problem-in-norway/589733.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anti-semitism-a-serious-problem-in-norway/589733.md?page=11)