# Is Anti-Semitism a serious problem in Norway? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 20, 2011, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anti-semitism-a-serious-problem-in-norway/589733 "2011-07-20T17:08:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2011, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anti-semitism-a-serious-problem-in-norway/589733/41 "2011-07-21T15:24:54Z")
In fact, doesn’t that sort of casual separation between “Muslim” and “European” reflect a kind of racism in the countries where it exists? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2011, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anti-semitism-a-serious-problem-in-norway/589733/42 "2011-07-21T15:29:34Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > In fact, doesn’t that sort of casual separation between “Muslim” and “European” reflect a kind of racism in the countries where it exists? I certainly think so. Similarly I’m always bothered how reports on France or Germany regularly use the phrase “immigrants” to refer to people who’ve lived there for two or three generations. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2011, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anti-semitism-a-serious-problem-in-norway/589733/43 "2011-07-21T15:33:08Z")
Exactly. At the point where you’re reduced to arguing that second-or-third generation Europeans don’t count because they happen to be Muslim, it’s pretty clear that you’re offering up a somewhat unsavory dodge rather than a cogent analysis. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2011, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anti-semitism-a-serious-problem-in-norway/589733/44 "2011-07-21T16:22:49Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > I certainly think so. > > Similarly I’m always bothered how reports on France or Germany regularly use the phrase “immigrants” to refer to people who’ve lived there for two or three generations. I think the law might have changed recently, but in Germany not long ago they were not even **citizens,** German citizenship passing by [_jus sanguinis_](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jus_sanguinis) (“right of blood”, i.e., German-citizen parents or ethnic-German parents) rather than by [_jus soli_](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jus_soli) (“right of soil”, i.e., birth in the country, as in the U.S.). ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2011, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anti-semitism-a-serious-problem-in-norway/589733/45 "2011-07-21T16:52:33Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > :dubious: Literally the first suggestion I’ve **ever** seen that the ADL is not a reliable authority on antisemitism. The NAACP **is** a reliable authority on racism; so is the SPLC/Klanwatch. If you compare the ADL to the Panthers instead of to the NAACP or SPLC, then you must be confusing the ADL with the Jewish Defense League. > [@Capitaine\_Zombie](#): > > Really? The ADL doesnt have a good press over here. Back in the early and mid 2000s they were constantly saying there was a very alarming rise of antisemitism in France. What do you think happened? Suddenly there were a few notable cases of antisemitic acts all over the press. All those cases proved to be boguses, fueled by the “Peter and the Wolf” campaign of the ADL. > I dont believe in the impartiality of interest groups. There are two very distinct areas in which the ADL operates. In one, advocacy, they can’t be trusted, because constantly issuing warnings about the “alarming rise of antisemitism” is what they do- after all, they’ve got to keep the donations coming. In the other, research, they absolutely can be trusted. It’s not an exaggeration to say that the ADL is the most trustworthy source of data on racism in the US. It’s like a news organization; you have to ignore the editorials, but you can pretty much believe whatever they are reporting as hard news. Now, I don’t know how the ADL operates overseas, and how closely its various international branches are linked, so take everything I just said with a grain of salt. ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2011, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anti-semitism-a-serious-problem-in-norway/589733/46 "2011-07-21T17:36:28Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Can you please show me where either Bawer or Dershowitz has given such a definition of anti-Semitism. > > It makes no sense since Dershowitz has been supporting a two-state solution since the 70s. Dershowitz uses the antisemitism card all the time. the most famous recent example was this one : > **[The Lobby, Jews, and Anti-Semites](https://www.huffpost.com/entry/the-lobby-jews-and-antise_b_18998)** > > Dean Walt and Professor Mearsheimer wrote that Jews control the media and the government; that we are loyal to Israel rather than to our "host" country... A paper discussing the Israel lobby and its influence in America written by two harvard professors saw them absolutely castigated by exactly the same scumbags who are now throwing sewerage at Norway. I can’t be arsed to look through the archives of some random wingnut blogger for something similar but the fact that he’s accusing norway of being antisemitic says it all. ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2011, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anti-semitism-a-serious-problem-in-norway/589733/47 "2011-07-21T17:38:35Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > If the Muslim kids are immigrants, aren’t they now Europeans? So how can their actions have no reflection on Europeans? OK then, let’s say that kids from recent immigrants from Muslim/Arab nations hold views which are anti-Israel and antisemitic. But they’re a tiny subset of actual Norwegians/Europeans and it’s just silly to try and claim that the views of this group are representative of Europeans/Norwegians as a whole. ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2011, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anti-semitism-a-serious-problem-in-norway/589733/48 "2011-07-21T17:44:38Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > The argument isn’t that you cannot say anything bad about Israel, but when criticism of a single country is blown out of proportion in comparison to other country. It’s pretty absurd to see Israel singled out and countries like Syria, Egypt, Libya, Saudi Arabia, etc. passed by – or even praised. It leaves you with absolutely zero credibility. It isn’t anti-Semitism though, as much as some left-over anti-colonial, anti-Western positions from the Cold-War. > > It isn’t just in high-school though. Nonoby is singling out Israel. Refugees from Arab countries are almost unanimously opposed to the regimes which run their countries. Who the hell is praising these countries? Israel gets criticism because it’s responsible for an ongoing almost half-century illegal occupation of another people, an occupation that the whole world sees is illegal. Obviously the longer it goes on, and the more Israel keeps illegally building on illegally occupied land, the oppression of Palestinian people, the blockade of gaza etc., the m ore criticism they’re going to get. And rightly so! ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2011, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anti-semitism-a-serious-problem-in-norway/589733/49 "2011-07-21T17:48:08Z")
> [@Dick\_Dastardly](#): > > OK then, let’s say that kids from recent immigrants from Muslim/Arab nations hold views which are anti-Israel and antisemitic. But they’re a tiny subset of actual Norwegians/Europeans and it’s just silly to try and claim that the views of this group are representative of Europeans/Norwegians as a whole. How about the 38% of all French citizens who claim French Jews are loyal to Israel than to France. That’s an obviously anti-Semitic comment. I assume you feel that such a statement is bigoted don’t you. I’m also amused that after all the chest-beating you’ve done regarding the mistreatment of Muslims by Israelis you try to deny anti-Muslim racism is a problem in Europe(or at least Norway) while arguing that Muslims aren’t real Europeans. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2011, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anti-semitism-a-serious-problem-in-norway/589733/50 "2011-07-21T18:00:38Z")
> [@Dick\_Dastardly](#): > > Dershowitz uses the antisemitism card all the time. the most famous recent example was this one : > > [The Lobby, Jews, and Anti-Semites | HuffPost Latest News](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/alan-dershowitz/the-lobby-jews-and-antise_b_18998.html) > > A paper discussing the Israel lobby and its influence in America written by two harvard professors saw them absolutely castigated by exactly the same scumbags who are now throwing sewerage at Norway. > > I can’t be arsed to look through the archives of some random wingnut blogger for something similar but the fact that he’s accusing norway of being antisemitic says it all. Dick, you made a specific factual claim about Dershowitz. You said Dershowitz > [@](#): > > define “antisemitic” as anything that goes against the current policy of the Israeli government, particularly Palestinian issues. If you’re pro a Palestinian state or even just moderate on Arab-Israeli issues then because you’re not completetly aligned with current Israeli policy you’re called antisemitic. However you don’t show Dershowitz defining anyone who criticizes the Israeli government or who’s critical of the occupation or who’s pro-Palestinian as being an anti-Semite. In fact, since Dershowitz is pro-Palestinian and favors a two-state solution it would be moronic of him to make such a claim. Now, please show where Dershowitz makes such a claim or retract your slur. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2011, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anti-semitism-a-serious-problem-in-norway/589733/51 "2011-07-21T18:22:07Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > In fact, doesn’t that sort of casual separation between “Muslim” and “European” reflect a kind of racism in the countries where it exists? Just thinking it through, it would be very unusual for a North American to casually make such a seperation concering Americans or Canadians. That doesn’t mean, mind you, that Americans or Canadians aren’t bigoted. Of course some are. But it does I think point to a different sort of overall mind-set towards what it means to be a citizen. The child of an immigrant is still a Canadian in the minds of other Canadians, and what he or she does are still the acts of Canadians, even if one is bigoted against their race, ethnicity or religion. Perhaps the surveys that show high levels of response for questions that essentially posit that Jews aren’t loyal towards the (European) country where they are nominally citizens is a reflection of that - that to the responders, the Jewish citizenry simply are not “real” citizens, in the same way that the Muslim children of immigrants are not “real” citizens. Of course, if that is one’s opinion, it is natural to assume that the “others” think similarly and are not “really” loyal (presumably to an extent this may be a self-fulfilling prophecy: if the “others” are treated as ‘not really’ citizens, they are more likely to place their loyalties elsewhere). ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2011, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anti-semitism-a-serious-problem-in-norway/589733/52 "2011-07-21T18:55:59Z")
> [@Dick\_Dastardly](#): > > OK then, let’s say that kids from recent immigrants from Muslim/Arab nations hold views which are anti-Israel and antisemitic. But they’re a tiny subset of actual Norwegians/Europeans and it’s just silly to try and claim that the views of this group are representative of Europeans/Norwegians as a whole. Maybe, but the fact that the author Jostein Gaarder could get away with [this editorial](http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article14532.htm) and keep his reputation intact suggests that anti-Semitic sentiments aren’t only held by the children of recent immigrants. From the article: > [@](#): > > We do not recognize the rhetoric of the State of Israel. We do not recognize the spiral of retribution and blood vengeance that comes with “an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.” We do not recognize the principle of ten or a thousand Arab eyes for one Israeli eye. We do not recognize collective punishment or population thinning out as a political weapon. Two thousand years have passed since a Jewish rabbi criticized the ancient doctrine of “an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.” > > He said: “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.” We do not recognize a state founded on anti-humanistic principles and on the ruins of an archaic national and warlike religion. > [@](#): > > We do not recognize the old Kingdom of David as a model for the 21st century map of the Middle East. The Jewish rabbi claimed two thousand years ago that the Kingdom of God is not a martial restoration of the Kingdom of David; the Kingdom of God is within us and amongst us. The Kingdom of God is compassion and forgiveness. > > Two thousand years have passed since the Jewish rabbi disarmed and thoroughly humanized the old rhetoric of war. Even in his time, the first Zionist terrorists were operating. > [@](#): > > We don’t believe in the notion of God’s Chosen People. We laugh at this people’s capriciousness and weep at its misdeeds. To act as God’s Chosen People is not only stupid and arrogant, but a crime against humanity. We call it racism. ---
**Author:** ![blinkthrice](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ba8739/32.png) [@blinkthrice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blinkthrice)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2011, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anti-semitism-a-serious-problem-in-norway/589733/53 "2011-07-21T19:09:20Z")
Inn warraq, are you a Muslim? If so, why is it that so many of your posts involve defending Jews and Israel? Just curious. If you aren’t Muslim, please disregard and carry on. ---
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2011, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anti-semitism-a-serious-problem-in-norway/589733/54 "2011-07-21T19:11:49Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Maybe, but the fact that the author Jostein Gaarder could get away with [this editorial](http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article14532.htm) and keep his reputation intact suggests that anti-Semitic sentiments aren’t only held by the children of recent immigrants. From the article: Are you seriously claiming that the excerpts you cited are the proof of Jostein Gaarder being anti-semitic? If so (and it appears you do) then it is not the case that the bar is too low – there is no bar. If anything, this post is a proof of the way too common case of anyone criticizing state of Israel and its policies to be labelled anti-Semitic. The label has been so devalued it’s worthless. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2011, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anti-semitism-a-serious-problem-in-norway/589733/55 "2011-07-21T19:13:28Z")
> [@blinkthrice](#): > > Inn warraq, are you a Muslim? If so, why is it that so many of your posts involve defending Jews and Israel? Just curious. If you aren’t Muslim, please disregard and carry on. Are you under the impression that Muslims are required to hate Israel? ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2011, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anti-semitism-a-serious-problem-in-norway/589733/56 "2011-07-21T19:14:46Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Maybe, but the fact that the author Jostein Gaarder could get away with [this editorial](http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article14532.htm) and keep his reputation intact suggests that anti-Semitic sentiments aren’t only held by the children of recent immigrants. From the article: That’s a truly amazing screed of ignorance and Christian prejudice (I particularly liked the attack on the “Chosen People” - that’s always the sign of someone who doesn’t have the first clue about Judaism). I guess the issue is how well-received this was among Norweigians generally. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2011, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anti-semitism-a-serious-problem-in-norway/589733/57 "2011-07-21T19:18:30Z")
> [@newcomer](#): > > Are you seriously claiming that the excerpts you cited are the proof of Jostein Gaarder being anti-semitic? > > If so (and it appears you do) then it is not the case that the bar is too low – there is no bar. > > If anything, this post is a proof of the way too common case of anyone criticizing state of Israel and its policies to be labelled anti-Semitic. The label has been so devalued it’s worthless. Woah. The exerpts show a specifically _religiously Christian_ attack on Israel (Mr. Gaarder is apparently unaware that the original Zionists were mostly not religious and in no way intended to establish a “kingdom of God”) and spouts very typical anti-Jewish canards, such as the swipe at the “Chosen People”. I dunno what your bar is for anti-Semitism, but I think most would agree that this meets it. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2011, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anti-semitism-a-serious-problem-in-norway/589733/58 "2011-07-21T19:19:21Z")
> [@blinkthrice](#): > > Inn warraq, are you a Muslim? If so, why is it that so many of your posts involve defending Jews and Israel? Just curious. If you aren’t Muslim, please disregard and carry on. Do you feel the need to ask Christians why they defend Jews and to ask Jews why they feel the need to defend Muslims? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2011, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anti-semitism-a-serious-problem-in-norway/589733/59 "2011-07-21T19:37:41Z")
> [@newcomer](#): > > Are you seriously claiming that the excerpts you cited are the proof of Jostein Gaarder being anti-semitic? No, Calling Judaism “an archaic national and warlike religion”, that Jews worship “an insatiable sadist”, that Jesus was opposed to the “Zionist terrorists”, that saying, “To act as God’s Chosen People is not only stupid and arrogant, but a crime against humanity”, wishing “May the spirit and the word blow the apartheid walls of Israel down”, and claiming “The State of Israel does not exist.” isn’t anti-semitic at all. The entire thing is, “Gee, isn’t it a shame Judaism has made Israel so horrible? If only they would have listened to Jesus, instead. . .” ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2011, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anti-semitism-a-serious-problem-in-norway/589733/60 "2011-07-21T19:45:30Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > No, Calling Judaism “an archaic national and warlike religion”, that Jews worship “an insatiable sadist”, that Jesus was opposed to the “Zionist terrorists”, that saying, “To act as God’s Chosen People is not only stupid and arrogant, but a crime against humanity”, wishing “May the spirit and the word blow the apartheid walls of Israel down”, and claiming “The State of Israel does not exist.” isn’t anti-semitic at all. > > The entire thing is, “Gee, isn’t it a shame Judaism has made Israel so horrible? If only they would have listened to Jesus, instead. . .” Heh, expressly calling Jews as a people “baby killers” may be a trifle _harsh_, but let’s not call it anti-Semitic … 😃 > [@](#): > > We call baby killers “baby killers” and will never accept that people such as these have a divine or historic mandate excusing their outrages. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anti-semitism-a-serious-problem-in-norway/589733.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anti-semitism-a-serious-problem-in-norway/589733.md?page=4)