# Is Anti-Semitism a serious problem in Norway? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 20, 2011, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anti-semitism-a-serious-problem-in-norway/589733 "2011-07-20T17:08:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2011, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anti-semitism-a-serious-problem-in-norway/589733/81 "2011-07-22T18:13:07Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > The only thing I really have against Jews is the fruits they would sooner disown – Christianity and Islam. Judaism by itself falls under the “Mostly Harmless” category. Well, we’re not discussing your opinion but the Norwegian writer’s and he clearly likes Christianity since he visciously attacks the Jews for not following Jesus. Edit: post came across a bit nastier than intended. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2011, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anti-semitism-a-serious-problem-in-norway/589733/82 "2011-07-22T18:22:51Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > Nobody ever understands the concept of “chosen people.” It doesn’t mean that the Jews are “better” than everyone else. It means that they HAVE MORE RESPONSIBILITIES than everyone else. It’s WORK following the strictures of the Jewish religion. Judaism is not about dominating other people, controlling the non-Jewish nations, etc. It has never been about that. Over the years, Christians and Muslims alike have accused the Jews of doing what in reality THEY have been doing - forcibly converting, conquering, and generally pushing their religion on others. The Jews just want to be left the fuck alone with their own insular group. They have no desire to screw the other religious groups because they’re the “chosen” people. That’s not what the concept of chosen people means. Yup - and further, willful ignorance of this point is almost the hallmark of anti-Semitism. There is simply no excuse in the modern world for any educated person to still be parroting the old anti-Jewish notions about the “chosen people” term. When you see someone who has apparently studied history and religions, as Mr. Gaarder quite evidently has (he wrote _Sophie’s World_), and still repeating this old lie, you know it’s willful ignorance at work. ---
**Author:** ![Capitaine\_Zombie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e95f7d/32.png) [@Capitaine\_Zombie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capitaine_Zombie)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2011, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anti-semitism-a-serious-problem-in-norway/589733/83 "2011-07-22T18:40:36Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Do you actually bother to read the threads you’re commenting on or do you just ignore most of the posts? > > I provided a link in post 14 and we spent several posts discussing it. > > Anyway, don’t you agree that claiming that it’s anti-Semitic to claim that French Jews are more loyal to Israel than to the government of France? > [@Dick\_Dastardly](#): > > I’d like to see a cite for this. The cite is the ADL link he provided (not very obvious in his post, easy to miss). That said Ibn Warraq cant apparently neither read nor understand the very cites he is providing. One of the ADL questions (well, it’s not really a question actually. more of a statement which the surveyed must comment) in the survey was: “French Jews are more loyal to Israel than to the government of France”, to which the two possible answers were “probably true” or “probably false”, 38 per cent of the French questioned in this survey answered “probably true”. This became, in Ibn Warraq’s mind, 38 per cent of French claim (or complain) “French Jews are more loyal to Israel than to the government of France”. Dude, that would mean that at least, one French out of every three would be routinely saying this. I have yet to see even a yearly appearance of this behaviour. What’s pointing more towards willingful dishonesty on his part is the fact that other countries are provided in the survey, and all of those countries, except for the UK, have consistently higher "probably true "poll numbers on the “Antisemitic qualifyers” questions of the ADL (we’re talking about Spain, Poland, Germany, Hungary and Austria here). If everybody is antisemitic to you, maybe the problem isnt the others. I dont know, either he cant read numbers or doesnt master English yet. ADL’s “antisemitism in Europe” link (pdf link): [http://www.adl.org/Public%20ADL%20Anti-Semitism%20Presentation%20February%202009%20\_3\_.pdf](http://www.adl.org/Public%20ADL%20Anti-Semitism%20Presentation%20February%202009%20_3_.pdf) ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2011, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anti-semitism-a-serious-problem-in-norway/589733/84 "2011-07-22T18:45:50Z")
> [@Capitaine\_Zombie](#): > > The cite is the ADL link he provided (not very obvious in his post, easy to miss). That said Ibn Warraq cant apparently neither read nor understand the very cites he is providing. One of the ADL questions (well, it’s not really a question actually. more of a statement which the surveyed must comment) in the survey was: > “French Jews are more loyal to Israel than to the government of France”, to which the two possible answers were “probably true” or “probably false”, 38 per cent of the French questioned in this survey answered “probably true”. > This became, in Ibn Warraq’s mind, 38 per cent of French claim (or complain) “French Jews are more loyal to Israel than to the government of France”. Dude, that would mean that at least, one French out of every three would be routinely saying this. I have yet to see even a yearly appearance of this behaviour. > What’s pointing more towards willingful dishonesty on his part is the fact that other countries are provided in the survey, and all of those countries, except for the UK, have consistently higher "probably true "poll numbers on the “Antisemitic qualifyers” questions of the ADL (we’re talking about Spain, Poland, Germany, Hungary and Austria here). If everybody is antisemitic to you, maybe the problem isnt the others. > > I dont know, either he cant read numbers or doesnt master English yet. > > ADL’s “antisemitism in Europe” link (pdf link): > [http://www.adl.org/Public%20ADL%20Anti-Semitism%20Presentation%20February%202009%20\_3\_.pdf](http://www.adl.org/Public%20ADL%20Anti-Semitism%20Presentation%20February%202009%20_3_.pdf) Are you arguing that if what would otherwise be considered anti-Semitism is quite widespread in continental Europe based on answers to survey questions, it isn’t really anti-Semitism? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Capitaine\_Zombie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e95f7d/32.png) [@Capitaine\_Zombie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capitaine_Zombie)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2011, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anti-semitism-a-serious-problem-in-norway/589733/85 "2011-07-22T18:50:32Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Are you arguing that if what would otherwise be considered anti-Semitism is quite widespread in continental Europe based on answers to survey questions, it isn’t really anti-Semitism? 😕 I’m saying that if a survey concludes everybody is racist, I’m wont be basing much of my reasoning on it. You’re welcome to disagree. I prefer my own thoughts reality-based. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2011, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anti-semitism-a-serious-problem-in-norway/589733/86 "2011-07-22T18:52:28Z")
CZ, If you’re going to attack my “command” of the English language and accuse me of not being able to “read” you might wish to make sure your own post isn’t loaded with spelling and grammatical errors. It does undercut your point. Beyond that, Finn already demolished your attempt to handwave away the results you don’t like so I’ll merely ask you one question. Do you think that it’s anti-Semitic to say that French Jews are more loyal to Israel than to France? Again, I certainly don’t think that anti-Semitism is the problem in France that anti-Arab racism is, but it’s an issue. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2011, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anti-semitism-a-serious-problem-in-norway/589733/87 "2011-07-22T18:56:48Z")
> [@Capitaine\_Zombie](#): > > I’m saying that if a survey concludes everybody is racist, I’m wont be basing much of my reasoning on it. You’re welcome to disagree. > I prefer my own thoughts reality-based. I would have thought basing one’s reasoning on stuff like evidence from surveys _was_ “reality-based”. Rejecting the survey evidence because you don’t happen to like what it demonstrates, less so. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2011, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anti-semitism-a-serious-problem-in-norway/589733/88 "2011-07-22T19:01:00Z")
Incidentally, isn’t accusing someone of “willful dishonesty” a violation of the board policy? Also the study found that 38% of the French respondents said it was “probably true” that French Jews were more loyal to Israel than France so unless CZ has some evidence that the ADL forged the study I don’t see how he can dismiss it much less accuse me of lying. ---
**Author:** ![Capitaine\_Zombie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e95f7d/32.png) [@Capitaine\_Zombie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capitaine_Zombie)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2011, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anti-semitism-a-serious-problem-in-norway/589733/89 "2011-07-22T19:06:17Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Rejecting the survey evidence because you don’t happen to like what it demonstrates, less so. I’ll be sure to repost that whenever **Chen09** or **New Deal Democrat** posts one of their surveys establishing that Blacks are really hairless monkeys. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2011, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anti-semitism-a-serious-problem-in-norway/589733/90 "2011-07-22T19:10:21Z")
> [@Capitaine\_Zombie](#): > > I’ll be sure to repost that whenever **Chen09** or **New Deal Democrat** posts one of their surveys establishing that Blacks are really hairless monkeys. Can you provide some evidence that the study was falsified? Also, once again, do you think it’s anti-Semitic to claim that French Jews are more loyal to Israel than to France? ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2011, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anti-semitism-a-serious-problem-in-norway/589733/91 "2011-07-22T19:10:39Z")
> [@Capitaine\_Zombie](#): > > I’ll be sure to repost that whenever **Chen09** or **New Deal Democrat** posts one of their surveys establishing that Blacks are really hairless monkeys. How would you establish that by a _survey_? Whether or not someone is a “hairless monkey” isn’t a matter of popular opinion, but of fact. OTOH, if they published a survey showing that 38% of French people answered “yes” to the survey question “are Blacks really hairless monkeys?”, I’d look to see the statistical validity of the survey, and unless errors could be shown, I’d have to conclude - whatever my private opinion of France or Blacks happened to be - that racist sentiments were widespread in France. Correct? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2011, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anti-semitism-a-serious-problem-in-norway/589733/92 "2011-07-22T19:13:00Z")
> [@Capitaine\_Zombie](#): > > I’m saying that if a survey concludes everybody is racist, I’m wont be basing much of my reasoning on it. You’re welcome to disagree. > I prefer my own thoughts reality-based. What if everybody actually is racist? It seems like your problem with the survey isn’t its methodology or anything like that. Your problem with the survey is that you don’t like its results. Rejecting a study because you don’t like the results isn’t reality based. If anything, it’s the opposite. ---
**Author:** ![Capitaine\_Zombie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e95f7d/32.png) [@Capitaine\_Zombie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capitaine_Zombie)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2011, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anti-semitism-a-serious-problem-in-norway/589733/93 "2011-07-22T19:13:29Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > CZ, > If you’re going to attack my “command” of the English language and accuse me of not being able to “read” . > [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Incidentally, isn’t accusing someone of “willful dishonesty” a violation of the board policy? > > Also the study found that 38% of the French respondents said it was “probably true” that French Jews were more loyal to Israel than France so unless CZ has some evidence that the ADL forged the study I don’t see how he can dismiss it much less accuse me of lying. Well dude, either you do it out of ignorance or out of malice. I was going for the benign explanation. As you do it again right in the secod post I’m quoting here, I’ll have to reitirate. The study never _found_ anything. It established the question itself and then shot it at its survey pool. And, to be frank, it’s not so much the ADL’ surevy (the survey, by itself, isnt very informative, though it could be, if it kept repeating the same questions over the years. At least we’d get trends, here, we just got “more than one third per cent of all Europe is hardcore antisemitic”) it’s your understanding or translating of it that’s seriously at fault. ---
**Author:** ![Capitaine\_Zombie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e95f7d/32.png) [@Capitaine\_Zombie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capitaine_Zombie)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2011, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anti-semitism-a-serious-problem-in-norway/589733/94 "2011-07-22T19:21:58Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > What if everybody actually is racist? It seems like your problem with the survey isn’t its methodology or anything like that. Your problem with the survey is that you don’t like its results. Rejecting a study because you don’t like the results isn’t reality based. If anything, it’s the opposite. Oh sure, that’s possible. Everybody could be racist. But, just wondering, wouldnt that actually fucking translates into reality. Wouldnt there be constant racist insults all the fucking time? I’m questioning a survey that literally tells me that the dimension I’m living in, and the dimension I’m posting to arent the same. There definitely are some methodology problems in the survey (the biggest one being the evident “probably true” “probably false” two choices answers). I dont like or dislike the survey, I just think it’s bogus. If your own opinion is that there is a serious problem with antismetism in France, you could probably find a far better study or survey backing that up that in less than an hour search. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2011, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anti-semitism-a-serious-problem-in-norway/589733/95 "2011-07-22T19:33:26Z")
> [@Capitaine\_Zombie](#): > > And, to be frank, it’s not so much the ADL’ surevy (the survey, by itself, isnt very informative, though it could be, if it kept repeating the same questions over the years. At least we’d get trends, here, we just got “more than one third per cent of all Europe is hardcore antisemitic”) it’s your understanding or translating of it that’s seriously at fault. Er, you didn’t read the ADL survey did you? They are “repeating” the questions over the years to “determine patterns”. You’ll notice this survey was done in 2009 and it’s a followup to one done in 2007 where the same questions were asked. I believe they’re conducting the survey this year, they just don’t have the results yet, but they’ll obviously release them either at the end of this year or next year. Anyway, whoeve thinks he’s right and that I’m being dishonest can click on the link in post 14 and read it. It’s fairly obvious that CZ merely glanced at it, saw it got results he didn’t like and then disregarded it. Otherwise he wouldn’t have made the clearly false statement about it would have been better to repeat the questions over the years to detect a pattern. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2011, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anti-semitism-a-serious-problem-in-norway/589733/96 "2011-07-22T19:51:25Z")
Oh one other thing, when CZ claims that I think or that I interpret the study as saying that “one third of Europe is hardcore anti-Semitic” he’s either misread me, the survey, or confused me with someone else. I haven’t said anything of the sort nor does the survey make such claims. If anyone doubts this they can look at post 14 where I specifically say that it’s wrong to claim that France is “massively anti-Semitic”. I also said there and elsewhere that anti-Arab racism in France is much worse than anti-Semitism. Moreover the ADL report draws no such conclusions. Once more, I recommend anyone who doubts this should click on the report and read it to make sure they don’t make the mistakes about the report that CZ made. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2011, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anti-semitism-a-serious-problem-in-norway/589733/97 "2011-07-22T21:10:58Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > The argument isn’t that you cannot say anything bad about Israel, but when criticism of a single country is blown out of proportion in comparison to other country. It’s pretty absurd to see Israel singled out and countries like Syria, Egypt, Libya, Saudi Arabia, etc. passed by – or even praised. It leaves you with absolutely zero credibility. It isn’t anti-Semitism though, as much as some left-over anti-colonial, anti-Western positions from the Cold-War. Please. You’re saying the criticism may be valid but if it reaches an uncomfortable level for those being criticized the onus is then on me to prove \*my \*motives are pure? Fuck that noise. ---
**Author:** ![voltaire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voltaire/32/313_2.png) [@voltaire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/voltaire)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2011, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anti-semitism-a-serious-problem-in-norway/589733/98 "2011-07-22T21:11:03Z")
When did Norway become a part of France? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2011, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anti-semitism-a-serious-problem-in-norway/589733/99 "2011-07-22T21:24:01Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > Nobody ever understands the concept of “chosen people.” It doesn’t mean that the Jews are “better” than everyone else. It means that they HAVE MORE RESPONSIBILITIES than everyone else. It’s WORK following the strictures of the Jewish religion. Judaism is not about dominating other people, controlling the non-Jewish nations, etc. It has never been about that. Over the years, Christians and Muslims alike have accused the Jews of doing what in reality THEY have been doing - forcibly converting, conquering, and generally pushing their religion on others. The Jews just want to be left the fuck alone with their own insular group. They have no desire to screw the other religious groups because they’re the “chosen” people. That’s not what the concept of chosen people means. Until the Messiah comes, that is, and then, the goyim can suck it! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2011, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anti-semitism-a-serious-problem-in-norway/589733/100 "2011-07-22T21:46:36Z")
Actually, IIRC, Jewish messianic prophecies predict world peace with all of the nations worshiping God side by side. Very touchy-feely stuff. Don’t mistake Jewish escathology for Christian. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anti-semitism-a-serious-problem-in-norway/589733.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anti-semitism-a-serious-problem-in-norway/589733.md?page=6)