# Is Antifa real? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 16, 2017, 11:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-antifa-real/793782 "2017-08-16T11:27:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![cromulent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b4bc9f/32.png) [@cromulent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cromulent)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2017, 11:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-antifa-real/793782/1 "2017-08-16T11:27:45Z")
The title is pretty much my question. I know this nebulous organization has supplanted Black Lives Matter as the new right wing boogeyman. I am sure there are people on college campuses who call themselves Antifa. Being a socialist (as this group is alleged to be) in college doesn’t make you a terrorist, no? Yet people seem to equate this group with Nazis and the Klan, both of which, of course, have a clear history of violence. Being “anti-fascist” is something a lot of people, myself included, can get behind. I’ve never met a member of Antifa. Admittedly, I’m no longer in college. I’ve literally never heard of this organization doing anything outside of right wing media and message boards. So is it real? Does it exist at all, and if so, is it any where near the threat that a great number of Trump supporters allege it to be? ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2017, 11:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-antifa-real/793782/2 "2017-08-16T11:37:22Z")
Antifascist (antifa for short) in its original meaning is an ideological aspect, not an organization. There are multiple antifascist organizations in multiple places and with different takes on it; there are organizations which have added “antifascist” to a preexisting list of adjectives and others for which it is the main point. Some are violent, some are pacifists, some are anarchist youths, some are soccer fans who identify fascism with the more violent hooligan clans and want to make it clear that those attitudes won’t be tolerated. It’s used by so many people that it isn’t very descriptive without asking for more detail. People who call themselves Antifa are also real. An international organization, nope. ---
**Author:** ![Fuzzy\_wuzzy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a8b319/32.png) [@Fuzzy\_wuzzy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuzzy_wuzzy)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2017, 12:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-antifa-real/793782/3 "2017-08-16T12:18:55Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > Antifascist (antifa for short) in its original meaning is an ideological aspect, not an organization. There are multiple antifascist organizations in multiple places and with different takes on it; there are organizations which have added “antifascist” to a preexisting list of adjectives and others for which it is the main point. Some are violent, some are pacifists, some are anarchist youths, some are soccer fans who identify fascism with the more violent hooligan clans and want to make it clear that those attitudes won’t be tolerated. It’s used by so many people that it isn’t very descriptive without asking for more detail. > > People who call themselves Antifa are also real. > > An international organization, nope. This is probably mostly correct. Within reason Antifa is what others wish to interpret it as. I assume there are peaceful elements to the group as well as violent elements. Im sure many Antifa members would limit themselves to assaulting confirmed _Nazis_, im sure other members of Antifa would include assaulting\* suspected Nazis\*, and a few members would happily assault _libertarians and conservatives._ Many Antifa members would assault no-one. However, the violent element within Antifa is large enough for it’s opponents to reasonably label it a violent organization. An international organization? Yes, to an extent. Im convinced Antifa elements are in contact internationally. If a certain tactic is shown to work in Berkeley then that tactic will have a way of being transmitted to Antifa members in Belgium. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2017, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-antifa-real/793782/4 "2017-08-16T12:53:09Z")
Antifa is of course a thing. It’s not a very large or important thing, though. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2017, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-antifa-real/793782/5 "2017-08-16T13:42:47Z")
I suspect that really means that the people they attack are people who you don’t like much anyway. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2017, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-antifa-real/793782/6 "2017-08-16T13:49:50Z")
They were [flying their own flag in Minnesota a couple of days ago](https://youtu.be/R3HyBtHcklY), so yeah, they’re real, but still a fringe group. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2017, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-antifa-real/793782/7 "2017-08-16T13:59:01Z")
I think a lot of them are anarchists, which is problematic in getting them organized. It’s not like the KKK with Grand Wizards and Imperial Dragons (or whatever). But the key thing about these guys, as opposed to most other leftist groups, is that the no NOT eschew violence. When they show up, you are pretty much assured of seeing some property damage, and perhaps some people injured. Although it can’t properly be called an international organization, that’s more because of the “organization” part than the “international” part. There are groups like this in Europe as well as the US and you’ll see them show up at Global Economic meetings like the G8, etc. ---
**Author:** ![cromulent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b4bc9f/32.png) [@cromulent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cromulent)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2017, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-antifa-real/793782/8 "2017-08-16T14:09:06Z")
Thank you for the responses so far. Let me clarify my question a little bit. Of course, if one person calls him or herself a member of Antifa, then it exists. If two people call themselves members, it’s a bonafide group at that point. But Antifa seems to be the theoretical antagonist du jour of a lot of online message groups. My question is to what extent this reputation is deserved. Is Antifa truly a “terrorist organization,” equivalent to right wing organizations such as the KKK? Or is it just a loose group of small anti-fascism organizations, overblown on certain media sites, designed to give people something to fear and rally against? ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2017, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-antifa-real/793782/9 "2017-08-16T14:16:47Z")
Probably a bit of both. They really do show up at some right-wing rallies and brawl sometimes, pepper spraying people, throwing shit (or bottles of urine at least), hitting people, etc. But on the flip side, there aren’t a lot of them, and they don’t really wield much political power, and haven’t organized any bombings or assassinations like a “proper” terrorist organization might. I feel like the comparison between them and Nazis / white supremacists / KKK on the right is mostly apt, but not perfect. I imagine people on both sides exaggerate the threat from the roughly-analagous organization on the other side and try to minimize the seriousness of the activities and words of the organization on their own side. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2017, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-antifa-real/793782/10 "2017-08-16T14:18:43Z")
> [@cromulent](#): > > But Antifa seems to be the theoretical antagonist du jour of a lot of online message groups. My question is to what extent this reputation is deserved. Is Antifa truly a “terrorist organization,” equivalent to right wing organizations such as the KKK? Or is it just a loose group of small anti-fascism organizations, overblown on certain media sites, designed to give people something to fear and rally against? Have you considered a third possibility? Perhaps “_right wing organizations such as the KKK_” are also “_overblown on certain media sites, designed to give people something to fear and rally against_”? The KKK in particular has a very inglorious history, but if you look at recent decades, I don’t think they (let alone other “right wing organizations”) have been committing nearly as much organized violence or intimidation as the antifa/black bloc etc. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2017, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-antifa-real/793782/11 "2017-08-16T14:19:59Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > I suspect that really means that the people they attack are people who you don’t like much anyway. If you’re referring to me, no, that is not what I meant. Antifa, at least in North America, is neither a large nor a well organized group. In truth, if nobody had ever come up with the name or the idea of the group, the amount of civil unrest at public gatherings would be exactly the same. Campus Marxists, thieves of opportunity, and other doofuses have been rioting and setting stuff on fire at big events since long before Fox News received the gift of “AntiFa” as a go to boogeyman. Think of the riots that G20 summits have seen. Nobody needed the “Antifa” name to turn cars over and make a mess of things. In 2010 Toronto was an absolute mess due to anti-globalization riots, much worse than anything “Antifa” has been accused of, but Antifa didn’t exist. They called themselve shte Black Bloc, the FCCC, and other names, and my guess is that within a few years “antifa” will be an abandoned name and they’ll have something new. ---
**Author:** ![control-z](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/eada6e/32.png) [@control-z](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/control-z)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2017, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-antifa-real/793782/12 "2017-08-16T14:20:50Z")
IMO they are quite real, but they probably don’t have a single unifying website or a newletter. And like many other groups, they vary in the extremity of their views. If you have Facebook, [the Southern Virginia Antifa page](https://www.facebook.com/VAantifa/) is somewhat illuminating. A few articles: > **[Who Were the Counterprotesters in Charlottesville? (Published 2017)](https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/14/us/who-were-the-counterprotesters-in-charlottesville.html)** > > The counterprotesters were united against white supremacy, but they advocated a wide array of beliefs, tactics and goals. > [@](#): > > Who marched against the ‘Unite the Right’ rally? > > Those who marched against the rally on Saturday in Charlottesville said they stood broadly in solidarity against white supremacy, but they espoused a wide array of ideological beliefs, preferred tactics and political goals. A large number were ordinary residents of Charlottesville who wanted to show their disdain for white supremacist groups, particularly after the Ku Klux Klan held a rally in the city on July 8. But some carried signs expressing more far-flung ideologies — denouncing capitalism, for instance, alongside fascism and racism. > **[What Is Antifa? Anti-Fascist Protesters Draw Attention After Charlottesville](https://time.com/4899658/charlottesville-antifa-protests/)** > > President Trump appeared to allude to them. > [@](#): > > Being against oppression doesn’t seem extreme. Why are these groups controversial? > > In the name of fighting for those ideals — and putting a stop to “hate speech”—some antifa protestors will employ militant tactics or violent means such as vandalism. That happened at President Trump’s inauguration, where protesters busted out limousine windows. Later in the spring, antifa protesters in Berkeley, Calif., opposed a speech by right wing provocateur Milo Yiannopoulos by breaking windows and starting fires, causing more than $100,000 of property damage. Some antifascist activists say that the media has sensationalized them by focusing such instances. And they point out that they have been targets of violence themselves. > [@](#): > > Is there an official antifa group? > > No, there’s no antifa headquarters. And a person could describe themselves as antifa without being a member of any particular group. The antifa movement is a loose and informal one. But the label is becoming more visible, showing up in graffiti on college campuses and forums for grassroots organizers online. Some groups that identify as anti-fascist say they’ve seen upticks in interest since the alt-right has gained momentum following the election because people feel that “you have to pick a side,” as the national chair of a group called By Any Means Necessary put it. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2017, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-antifa-real/793782/13 "2017-08-16T14:21:29Z")
> [@](#): > > I feel like the comparison between them and Nazis / white supremacists / KKK on the right is mostly apt, but not perfect. One difference: The Nazis still organize events, like the recent Charlotteville demonstration. Has Antifa ever organized anything themselves, as opposed to responding to someone else’s event? ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2017, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-antifa-real/793782/14 "2017-08-16T14:29:40Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > If you’re referring to me, no, that is not what I meant. Antifa, at least in North America, is neither a large nor a well organized group. I was referring to you and I knew that wasn’t what you meant to communicate, but it was the implication of what you’re saying. I don’t think you - or anyone - would be so blasé about that level of violence and intimidation aimed at other groups, e.g by RW groups aimed at leftists. > [@](#): > > In truth, if nobody had ever come up with the name or the idea of the group, the amount of civil unrest at public gatherings would be exactly the same. Campus Marxists, thieves of opportunity, and other doofuses have been rioting and setting stuff on fire at big events since long before Fox News received the gift of “AntiFa” as a go to boogeyman. Think of the riots that G20 summits have seen. Nobody needed the “Antifa” name to turn cars over and make a mess of things. In 2010 Toronto was an absolute mess due to anti-globalization riots, much worse than anything “Antifa” has been accused of, but Antifa didn’t exist. They called themselve shte Black Bloc, the FCCC, and other names, and my guess is that within a few years “antifa” will be an abandoned name and they’ll have something new. One big difference is that those other groups were directing their terror at the government while the antifa people are directing theirs at their fellow citizens. But beyond that, whether or not the name “antifa” is important or not seems irrelevant. Or whether they’re organized or not. What difference does any of that make? The question is whether these organized/disorganized groups - whatever you call them - are perpetuating violence and intimidation at a level that is worthy of public attention and requires some response from the authorities whose job it is to protect the public. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2017, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-antifa-real/793782/15 "2017-08-16T14:33:38Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > … When they show up, you are pretty much assured of seeing some property damage, and perhaps some people injured. When the local white supremacists came to the local Islamic Center to protest sharia law, or whatever that was supposed to be all about in June, a group of local antifa’s showed up to counter protest them. [There was no violence, there was no property damage](http://www.wcpo.com/news/local-news/butler-county/west-chester/demonstration-against-islamic-law-draws-counter-protest-at-butler-county-islamic-center). ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2017, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-antifa-real/793782/16 "2017-08-16T14:43:54Z")
> [@cromulent](#): > > Being “anti-fascist” is something a lot of people, myself included, can get behind. The problem is that “facist”, for these types of people, is essentially “anyone who disagrees with me”. > [@Chronos](#): > > One difference: The Nazis still organize events, like the recent Charlotteville demonstration. Has Antifa ever organized anything themselves, as opposed to responding to someone else’s event? Without the radical right for the Antifa to be “Anti” they are just the radical left. From what I gather, these Antifa are the same people that do things like riot at G8 summits. I don’t know if that counts as organizing or responding to someone else’s event. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2017, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-antifa-real/793782/17 "2017-08-16T14:50:44Z")
Anti-fascists are a bunch of socialists who like to dress up in black and beat up people who think differently than they do. In other words, fascists. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2017, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-antifa-real/793782/18 "2017-08-16T14:54:28Z")
Per Wikipedia, Antifa is not a formal group, it is an organizing strategy. The stated purpose is to counterprotest against far-right demonstrations. [(cite)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antifa_(United_States)) > [@](#): > > Antifa is composed of autonomous groups, not a formal organization. Activists typically organize protests via social media and through websites and list-serves. According to [Salon.com](http://Salon.com) it is an organizing strategy, not a group of people, and is commonly associated with a willingness to engage in a show of force. It appears this tactic models the approach of the G20/J20 protestors, who have adopted a [“black bloc”](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_bloc) style of demonstration against capitalism and globalization. For now it appears that the Antifa style is not nearly as nasty as the black bloc groups, but I wouldn’t bet on it staying this way. As far as Charlottesville, I haven’t seen any evidence of Antifa. One side was definitely responsible, that being the neo-Nazis and affiliated scum. But I expect that the more we see these guys spoiling for a fight in public spaces, the more we’ll see Antifa bringing them exactly that. Hell, I’d enjoy punching a Nazi myself, but as civil adults we have to exercise restraint. It’s a tragedy and I wish progressives were more willing to call it out without being tarred with the “both sides” brush. The side of violence is always wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2017, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-antifa-real/793782/19 "2017-08-16T14:55:36Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > The KKK in particular has a very inglorious history, but if you look at recent decades, I don’t think they (let alone other “right wing organizations”) have been committing nearly as much organized violence or intimidation as the antifa/black bloc etc. Far-right extremists are the leading perpetrators of organized violence in America. Remember Dylann Roof? There’s room for debate about how you define terms such that maybe Islam-motivated violence is first place or second place, but leftist violence is not even close to being on the same level. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2017, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-antifa-real/793782/20 "2017-08-16T14:57:42Z")
From my reading of the news, the number of violent protesters (whether antifa or black bloc) seem to be a pretty small percentage of the various protests that they attend. There were about 220 black bloc anarchists arrested during Trump’s inauguration, which was followed the day after by the Women’s March on Washington which had somewhere around 400-500 thousand marchers, with zero arrests. Even in the violence in Berkeley in February, there are estimates of 1,000 to 1,500 anti-right wing protesters, and the number of troublemakers seemed to number about 10% of that. Furthermore, it looks like the most popular antifa twitter feed has 17,000 followers. That’s nothing to sneeze at, but it isn’t really a large number, either. So yeah, these violent folks exist, but it is also clear that right wingers are trying to paint the anti-alt-right opposition with the term antifa and whatnot to hype up the threat. It’s just not accurate. I mean, just compare that fraction of protesters to how many “decent people” you think marched alongside Nazis and Klanners in C’ville last weekend. Seriously, what kind of normal person reads a flyer about David Duke and all these terrible people holding a protest and thinks, “Hmm… I oppose the Nazis and KKK, but I do like statues… so I’m going to join them!” No. Way. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-antifa-real/793782.md?page=2)