# Is Antifa real? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 16, 2017, 11:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-antifa-real/793782 "2017-08-16T11:27:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2017, 12:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-antifa-real/793782/81 "2017-08-17T12:04:58Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > No. The dangerous Alt-Right outnumbers Antifa by hundreds to one. > > _ **Not sure of the future though, as last weekend was a big recruitment aid for Antifa** _, and perhaps the neo-Nazis as well. > > What percent of protesters had knives or guns? How about counter-protesters? I expect more to be armed next riot(s). > [@E-DUB](#): > > My personal thinking is that Antifa is being pumped up as the ultimate fall guy for some major false-flag operation. Oh, that’s not to say that there aren’t people sincerely acting on the espoused principles but when you’re dealing with an outfit so amorphous anything is possible. My suspicion is that the operation will occur around the time of the 2018 midterms or possibly 2020. > > Sound crazy? Maybe, but it’s crazy people I’m talking about. “The question isn’t are you paranoid. The question is are you paranoid enough?” I’m afraid you’re right. North Korea is just a sideshow; Bannon is hoping for an antifa-led bloodbath to promote his domestic agneda. Bannon or other clever Trumpists are probably infiltrating antifa groups right now, teaching weapons use, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2017, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-antifa-real/793782/82 "2017-08-17T14:09:27Z")
> [@E-DUB](#): > > My personal thinking is that Antifa is being pumped up as the ultimate fall guy for some major false-flag operation. I don’t know about it being a false flag operation but a recent picture making the rounds of an [Antifa protestor beating a police officer was Photoshopped and did not happen](http://www.pbs.org/newshour/rundown/photo-antifa-man-assaulting-officer-doctored-analysis-shows/). ---
**Author:** ![thirdname](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/d07c76/32.png) [@thirdname](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thirdname)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2017, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-antifa-real/793782/83 "2017-08-17T14:56:00Z")
There are reports that Antifa gave a reporter a concussion, claimed responsibility for it and defended their action. [http://www.dailywire.com/news/19842/hidden-charlottesville-antifa-concussed-journalist-ben-shapiro](http://www.dailywire.com/news/19842/hidden-charlottesville-antifa-concussed-journalist-ben-shapiro) ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2017, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-antifa-real/793782/84 "2017-08-17T15:03:09Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > Uh, no. I have very little fondness for the Antifa crowd, and fascism isn’t a well defined or particularly useful term anyway, but this is not the way _any_ serious analyst (whatever their political conviction) would define fascism. Fascism is characterized by nationalism, authoritarianism, socialism, and violence. Antifa satisfies three out of four. At a political level fascism is less about ideas then about actions, that is why fascist parties always had their own private militias. Anti-fa’s calls to go in the streets and disrupt and attack enemies is a direct descendant of Bukharin’s idea of the propaganda of the deed which fascist theorists co opted. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2017, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-antifa-real/793782/85 "2017-08-17T15:48:31Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > Fascism is characterized by nationalism, authoritarianism, socialism, and violence. Antifa satisfies three out of four. At a political level fascism is less about ideas then about actions, that is why fascist parties always had their own private militias. Anti-fa’s calls to go in the streets and disrupt and attack enemies is a direct descendant of Bukharin’s idea of the propaganda of the deed which fascist theorists co opted. Fascism wasn’t socialist. What are you talking about? Is it because the Nazis had the word socialism in their party? This may shock you but the German Democratic Republic wasn’t a democracy and neither is the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea. I’ll agree that Fascism includes the other three. Antifa doesn’t include nationalism or authoritarianism. I have no idea about socialism in terms of the Antifa, but since the Fascists weren’t socialists, it’s irrelevant. Seems like the only thing they have in common is violence. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2017, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-antifa-real/793782/86 "2017-08-17T16:24:53Z")
I know it was a right-wing media talking point that the Nazis were left-wing socialists, but just saying it doesn’t make it true. The Nazis weren’t socialist. Yeah, they had the word “socialist” in their name. That doesn’t make it true. And if antifa is authoritarian, where are the leaders? Who issues the orders? Who obeys the orders? Antifa is not authoritarian. It’s just people who have the idea of opposing Nazis who aren’t going to be surprised when their anti-nazi actions lead to violent confrontation. These are Nazis were talking about, right? There used to be examples of authoritarian left-wing groups like the various paramilitary communist groups. What happened to those guys? ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2017, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-antifa-real/793782/87 "2017-08-17T20:38:40Z")
All I know is that the only place I ever hear about Antifa is by people on the right wing. And if they are as big as they say, I should be hearing about them in other sources. There is no left-wing media that can cover this stuff up. They exist. They shouldn’t have to in America, but they do. But they do not seem to be the boogeyman the Right makes them out to be. And I still can’t figure out why the Right is so upset given that most of them aren’t fascist. Is Antifa actually going up against fiscal conservatives? Are they going up against the religious right? No, they’re going after the alt-right. (A term apparently is being phased out by WaPo to avoid euphemizing hate groups.) ---
**Author:** ![DinoR](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dinor/32/2821_2.png) [@DinoR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DinoR)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2017, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-antifa-real/793782/88 "2017-08-17T22:20:48Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > All I know is that the only place I ever hear about Antifa is by people on the right wing. And if they are as big as they say, I should be hearing about them in other sources. Mother Jones - [A New Wave of Left-Wing Militants Is Ready to Rumble in Portland—and Beyond](http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2017/06/antifa-movement-anti-trump-politics-nazi/) LA Times - [For many at violent Berkeley rally, it wasn’t really about Trump or free speech: They came to make trouble](http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-berkeley-alt-right-20170417-story.html) NYT - [Anarchists Respond to Trump’s Inauguration, by Any Means Necessary](https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/02/us/anarchists-respond-to-trumps-inauguration-by-any-means-necessary.html) WAPO - (video) [How Some Antifa Protestors are Using Black Bloc Tactics](https://www.washingtonpost.com/video/national/what-is-the-black-bloc/2017/04/27/f8cb4caa-2b58-11e7-9081-f5405f56d3e4_video.html?utm_term=.773a9f78c107) HuffPo - [Violence Erupts In Portland Amid Alt-Right, Anti-Fascist Rallies](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/violence-erupts-in-portland-as-alt-right-anti-fascists-square-off_us_5932c1ebe4b075bff0f3dc8c) Vox - [The debate over punching white nationalist Richard Spencer in the face, explained](https://www.vox.com/identities/2017/1/26/14369388/richard-spencer-punched-alt-right-trump) Oh and there’s the SPLC link from my first post in this thread. Are those what you would consider heavily right biased sources? ---
**Author:** ![thirdname](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/d07c76/32.png) [@thirdname](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thirdname)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2017, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-antifa-real/793782/89 "2017-08-18T02:42:04Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > All I know is that the only place I ever hear about Antifa is by people on the right wing. And if they are as big as they say, I should be hearing about them in other sources. There is no left-wing media that can cover this stuff up. > > They exist. They shouldn’t have to in America, but they do. But they do not seem to be the boogeyman the Right makes them out to be. > > And I still can’t figure out why the Right is so upset given that most of them aren’t fascist. Is Antifa actually going up against fiscal conservatives? Are they going up against the religious right? No, they’re going after the alt-right. (A term apparently is being phased out by WaPo to avoid euphemizing hate groups.) The recent Antifa violence started in Berkeley. There were some protests and low-level violence against right-wing speakers such as Milo Yiannopoulos who disagree with feminism, transgender bathroom rights and so forth. In response, there were free-speech rallies in support of people being allowed to speak. Various people attended these rallies, including conservatives, some liberals and moderates, and a few Nazis. Antifa engaged in serious violence at these free-speech events including [hitting a person in the head](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9qKCl9NL1Cg) with a [metal bike lock](http://www.eastbaytimes.com/2017/05/24/berkeley-college-professor-arrested-as-assault-suspect/) and trying to hit people with a [wine bottle.](http://theralphretort.com/nathan-damigo-did-nothing-wrong-antifa-thug-girl-was-using-glass-bottles-as-weapons-before-punch-4017017/) The woman with the wine bottle was punched in the face by a white-nationalist. [Local TV news](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dcrY2QbppWg) interviewed her and portrayed her as an innocent victim, completely neglecting to mention that she was wielding a deadly weapon just a few seconds before she was punched. In Charlottesville they [attacked a TV reporter](http://freebeacon.com/politics/antifa-injures-reporter-blames-him/) and the local Antifa [defended this action](https://www.facebook.com/AntifaSevenHills/videos/832889300218819/) on Facebook, so it was not a rogue individual. They tend to call all conservatives fascists. And a lot of the Antifa people are straight-up communists and anarchists who threaten things such as moderate [“liberals get the bullet too”](https://smagicblog.wordpress.com/2017/02/04/the-far-left-are-not-your-friends/). It’s only more recently that Antifa has had the opportunity to protest an event largely consisting of actual Nazis. Pretty much every news source is biased in one way or another, especially TV news which is just blatantly manipulative propaganda. They choose not to cover stories that don’t fit the narrative they want to promote. As an example, the major news networks mostly ignore many clear-cut wrongful killings of white people in order to portray police violence as primarily a racial issue. Fox News, of course, mostly ignores police violence altogether or says they had it coming, unless it’s a white guy going up against the Feds. Of course, the Antifa people are pretty small in number, just as actual Nazis are, and not that significant in the grand scheme of things. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2017, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-antifa-real/793782/90 "2017-08-18T03:02:51Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > Fascism is characterized by nationalism, authoritarianism, socialism, and violence. Antifa satisfies three out of four. At a political level fascism is less about ideas then about actions, that is why fascist parties always had their own private militias. Anti-fa’s calls to go in the streets and disrupt and attack enemies is a direct descendant of Bukharin’s idea of the propaganda of the deed which fascist theorists co opted. 1. that’s not the definition of fascism, 2. the antifa are certainly violent but they’re not particularly authoritarian or nationalist, 3. “propaganda of the deed” is Bakunin, not Bukharin. Bukharin represented the conservative/moderate wing of the early Soviet Communists and was executed under Stalin. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2017, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-antifa-real/793782/91 "2017-08-18T03:04:41Z")
Again, I’ve just been conversing with a self proclaimed “antifa” and came away with the impression that the antifa philosophy is even more unappealing than I had realized. That doesn’t make it ‘fascist’, nor does it make them as bad as the Ku Klux Klan, people who wish the south had won the civil war, etc… Different things can all be bad while not being equally bad, and while not being bad in the same way. ---
**Author:** ![E-DUB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/e-dub/32/403_2.png) [@E-DUB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-DUB)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2017, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-antifa-real/793782/92 "2017-08-18T04:10:24Z")
A person who says that the Earth is flat is wrong. A person who says that the Earth is a perfect sphere is wrong. But the person who says the Earth is a perfect sphere is less wrong than the person who says the Earth is flat. There are degrees of wrongness.-Paraphrased from Isaac Asimov. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2017, 7:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-antifa-real/793782/93 "2017-08-18T07:02:53Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > All I know is that the only place I ever hear about Antifa is by people on the right wing. And if they are as big as they say, I should be hearing about them in other sources. There is no left-wing media that can cover this stuff up. > > They exist. They shouldn’t have to in America, but they do. But they do not seem to be the boogeyman the Right makes them out to be. > > And I still can’t figure out why the Right is so upset given that most of them aren’t fascist. Is Antifa actually going up against fiscal conservatives? Are they going up against the religious right? No, they’re going after the alt-right. (A term apparently is being phased out by WaPo to avoid euphemizing hate groups.) If you are really interested there are easy to find sources. Let me Google that for you, be right back… > **[‘Antifa’ Grows as Left-Wing Faction Set to, Literally, Fight the Far Right...](https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/17/us/antifa-left-wing-faction-far-right.html?mcubz=1)** > > Recent events in Charlottesville, Va., where white nationalists clashed with counterprotesters, have brought new attention to a coalition of radicals unafraid to scuffle with right-wing extremists. This is a good starting point. Something else worth looking at. > **[ANTIFA Conquers Hennepin County](https://alphanews.org/antifa-conquers-hennepin-county/)** > > Share This StoryMINNEAPOLIS — A small group of ANTIFA members conquered the Hennepin County Jail, when the group took down the Hennepin County flag and raised the ANTIFA flag in its place Monday afternoon. Approximately 100 people gathered outside of... And you haven’t been paying attention to this thread and others, BigT, that point out that Antifa mobs also attack Trump supporters and people wanting to see speakers at college campuses. I’m sure we’ll see more Antifa violence in September. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2017, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-antifa-real/793782/94 "2017-08-18T12:26:12Z")
> [@thirdname](#): > > Of course, the Antifa people are pretty small in number, just as actual Nazis are, and not that significant in the grand scheme of things. Small in number is relative. I don’t know what these people do for a living, but apparently they have plenty of free time and the ability to travel. So they can shut down conservatives all over the place by realistically threatening “protests” understood to involve violence, which then creates a security issue. I don’t think anyone has been deterred or prevented from doing anything by actual Nazis in recent times. To the contrary, actual Nazis are a blessing for the LW. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2017, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-antifa-real/793782/95 "2017-08-18T12:54:57Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Small in number is relative. I don’t know what these people do for a living, but apparently they have plenty of free time and the ability to travel. Booga-booga! ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2017, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-antifa-real/793782/96 "2017-08-18T13:13:12Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > I don’t think anyone has been deterred or prevented from doing anything by actual Nazis in recent times. ??? You know they’ve killed people, right? Death tends to prevent a lot of activities that one might like to do. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2017, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-antifa-real/793782/97 "2017-08-18T13:15:17Z")
I suspect that you know what I meant. If not, then consider the context. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2017, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-antifa-real/793782/98 "2017-08-18T13:26:09Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > I suspect that you know what I meant. > > If not, then consider the context. I took at as an assertion downplaying the significance of neo-nazis and white supremacists. If you just meant that they hadn’t prevented, through force or threat of force, a gathering or speech or similar, then I think you should have been more specific. ---
**Author:** ![DinoR](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dinor/32/2821_2.png) [@DinoR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DinoR)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2017, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-antifa-real/793782/99 "2017-08-18T13:32:44Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > Different things can all be bad while not being equally bad, and while not being bad in the same way. This bears repeating. Life is not a Hollywood movie. Just because we can clearly identify one party as a bad guy with a black hat doesn’t mean everyone opposing them is necessarily a white hatted force for good. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2017, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-antifa-real/793782/100 "2017-08-18T14:49:55Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I took at as an assertion downplaying the significance of neo-nazis and white supremacists. If you just meant that they hadn’t prevented, through force or threat of force, a gathering or speech or similar, then I think you should have been more specific. I think I was clear enough. In the sentence which immediately preceded the one you quoted, I said the antifa “_can shut down conservatives all over the place by realistically threatening “protests” understood to involve violence, which then creates a security issue_”. In light of that, the sentence which followed that was clearly about this broader type of impact in the case of Nazis. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-antifa-real/793782.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-antifa-real/793782.md?page=6)