# Is any part of mathematics innate? Even counting and simple operations? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [November 15, 2007, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-any-part-of-mathematics-innate-even-counting-and-simple-operations/426603 "2007-11-15T22:19:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![BlinkingDuck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eada6e/32.png) [@BlinkingDuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlinkingDuck)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2007, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-any-part-of-mathematics-innate-even-counting-and-simple-operations/426603/21 "2007-11-16T16:22:40Z")
[QUOTE=Koxinga] IIRC, it goes something like: one, two, three, many, many-one, many-two, many-three, many-many, many-many-one, many-many-two, many-many-three, many-many-many, many-many-many-one, many-many-many-two, many-many-many-three, LOTS. Or maybe I’m thinking of trolls. [/QUOTE] LOL Only if you’re counting goats. ---
**Author:** ![Trunk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/87869e/32.png) [@Trunk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trunk)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2007, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-any-part-of-mathematics-innate-even-counting-and-simple-operations/426603/22 "2007-11-16T16:40:41Z")
[QUOTE=Koxinga] Ya ever get that feeling that _somebody’s_ being whooshed, but you’re not sure if it’s you or the other guy? [/QUOTE] It appeared that **BlinkingDuck** made a comment about “primitive people” that has been labeled as racist by some, but is considered controversial in some circles. It further appeared that you were calling him out on it, and begging the question. I’ll try to keep straight the reading habits and shared experiences of your and other posters. Perhaps you could draw me a diagram. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2007, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-any-part-of-mathematics-innate-even-counting-and-simple-operations/426603/23 "2007-11-16T17:00:33Z")
[QUOTE=Trunk] It appeared that **BlinkingDuck** made a comment about “primitive people” that has been labeled as racist by some, but is considered controversial in some circles. It further appeared that you were calling him out on it, and begging the question. I’ll try to keep straight the reading habits and shared experiences of your and other posters. Perhaps you could draw me a diagram. [/QUOTE] You thought **Koxinga** was calling **BlinkingDuck** a troll. But even on the account you’ve given of your reading of the situation, it wouldn’t have made any sense for **Koxinga** to call **BlinkingDuck** a troll. You don’t call someone a troll for using terminology believed by some to be racist. You call someone a troll when you mean to accuse them of posting specifically for the sole purpose of sabotaging the intent of the thread in some way. Even on your account, **Koxinga** didn’t think **BlinkingDuck** was doing that. So I don’t think you can chalk this up to your not knowing some obscure reference in the OP or something. I think you just don’t know what “Troll” means. Or else, you inexplicably were convinced that **Koxinga** didn’t know what “Troll” means. (And still yet inexplicably failed to mention this in your criticism of him.) -FrL- ---
**Author:** ![Malachi\_Throne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@Malachi\_Throne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malachi_Throne)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2007, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-any-part-of-mathematics-innate-even-counting-and-simple-operations/426603/24 "2007-11-16T17:07:40Z")
As famously recorded by Plato, Socrates was able to teach an uneducated slave the value of the square root of 2 though his Socratic Method of asking leading questions. So, both of those thought that math was inherent knowledge. ---
**Author:** ![Trunk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/87869e/32.png) [@Trunk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trunk)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2007, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-any-part-of-mathematics-innate-even-counting-and-simple-operations/426603/25 "2007-11-16T17:11:09Z")
[QUOTE=Frylock] You thought **Koxinga** was calling **BlinkingDuck** a troll. But even on the account you’ve given of your reading of the situation, it wouldn’t have made any sense for **Koxinga** to call **BlinkingDuck** a troll. You don’t call someone a troll for using terminology believed by some to be racist. You call someone a troll when you mean to accuse them of posting specifically for the sole purpose of sabotaging the intent of the thread in some way. Even on your account, **Koxinga** didn’t think **BlinkingDuck** was doing that. So I don’t think you can chalk this up to your not knowing some obscure reference in the OP or something. I think you just don’t know what “Troll” means. Or else, you inexplicably were convinced that **Koxinga** didn’t know what “Troll” means. (And still yet inexplicably failed to mention this in your criticism of him.) -FrL- [/QUOTE] I thought that **Koxinga** was calling BD a troll for raising the issue of “primitive people can only count to three”. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2007, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-any-part-of-mathematics-innate-even-counting-and-simple-operations/426603/26 "2007-11-16T17:29:37Z")
[QUOTE=Trunk] I thought that **Koxinga** was calling BD a troll for raising the issue of “primitive people can only count to three”. [/QUOTE] I know. How could someone think that constitutes being a troll? -FrL- ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2007, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-any-part-of-mathematics-innate-even-counting-and-simple-operations/426603/27 "2007-11-16T17:31:04Z")
[QUOTE=Malachi Throne] As famously recorded by Plato, Socrates was able to teach an uneducated slave the value of the square root of 2 though his Socratic Method of asking leading questions. So, both of those thought that math was inherent knowledge. [/QUOTE] “Thought” being the operative word here. Socrates asked some awfully leading questions in that dialogue. The extent to which Plato realized this is debated. -FrL- ---
**Author:** ![Trunk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/87869e/32.png) [@Trunk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trunk)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2007, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-any-part-of-mathematics-innate-even-counting-and-simple-operations/426603/28 "2007-11-16T18:21:51Z")
[QUOTE=Frylock] I know. How could someone think that constitutes being a troll? -FrL- [/QUOTE] Because it’s been the subject of heated back-and-forths and name calling and the argument devolves into personal, not scientific, interpretations of the same data. This has gone on a ridiculous amount of words. ---
**Author:** ![Jamaika\_a\_jamaikaiake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7993a0/32.png) [@Jamaika\_a\_jamaikaiake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jamaika_a_jamaikaiake)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2007, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-any-part-of-mathematics-innate-even-counting-and-simple-operations/426603/29 "2007-11-16T21:27:30Z")
[This is a pretty good article about the Piraha](http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2007/04/16/070416fa_fact_colapinto) ---
**Author:** ![psiekier](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/psiekier/32/116_2.png) [@psiekier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psiekier)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2007, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-any-part-of-mathematics-innate-even-counting-and-simple-operations/426603/30 "2007-11-16T21:47:17Z")
[QUOTE=gazpacho] It is totally learned. Once you learn counting you basically have learned addition and subtraction especially adding and subtracting one. [/QUOTE] I will second this statement. My three-year-old son has learned to count to 20, but to him numbers are little more than words that come in a pre-arranged sequence. When he was a little younger, he was completely unable to grasp the concept of enumeration – namely, that the words corresponded to numbers which stood for quantities – but as time has progressed, he has learned to apply larger and larger numbers to quantities he sees. He’s up to about four items now. Any more than that and he just starts reciting the remaining numbers through ten regardless of how many there actually are. ---
**Author:** ![ftg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ftg/32/2801_2.png) [@ftg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ftg)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2007, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-any-part-of-mathematics-innate-even-counting-and-simple-operations/426603/31 "2007-11-17T18:14:51Z")
[QUOTE=Flander] I remember hearing studies that children up to a certain age can’t tell the quantity of something unless they count every single item. … [/QUOTE] These tests have been considered debunked by some. What appears to happen is that the kids of a certain age really can tell they are the same. But the kids are puzzled by _the question_ and in order to please the adult answer the way they do. See the books I listed above. * * * If you want primitive, look at English speaking people: Once, twice, thrice. What _word_ comes next? ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2007, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-any-part-of-mathematics-innate-even-counting-and-simple-operations/426603/32 "2007-11-17T18:23:17Z")
[QUOTE=ftg] * * * If you want primitive, look at English speaking people: Once, twice, thrice. What _word_ comes next? [/QUOTE] Why, frice, of course. Everybody knows that. 🙂 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-any-part-of-mathematics-innate-even-counting-and-simple-operations/426603.md?page=1)