# Is ANYONE at all hopeful about the economy? Should anyone be? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 30, 2010, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anyone-at-all-hopeful-about-the-economy-should-anyone-be/552055 "2010-08-30T22:57:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![mack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b19c9b/32.png) [@mack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mack)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2010, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anyone-at-all-hopeful-about-the-economy-should-anyone-be/552055/21 "2010-08-31T14:20:28Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > So is ANYONE predicting ANYTHING besides malaise and disaster for the foreseeable future? If so, why? If not, is there any reason for there be more hope than there is? I’m hopeful. It’s not like there’s any lack of money. It’s just being sat on for a variety of reasons. And it’s not like we’re hauling bags of cash to the supermarket to buy a gallon of milk and a loaf of bread. I think the disaster has already occurred and we’re in a spooked/malaise phase whether it’s fear of risk or fear of Obama or the notion that buying a house ain’t what it used to be. Things’ll loosen up and the money will flow…eventually :D. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2010, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anyone-at-all-hopeful-about-the-economy-should-anyone-be/552055/22 "2010-08-31T14:32:56Z")
**Kiber** raises a good point. Even if I _was_ gloomy now, it’s not a patch on what I was thinking in 2008, when it looked like we were _all_ going to be unemployed and homeless. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2010, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anyone-at-all-hopeful-about-the-economy-should-anyone-be/552055/23 "2010-08-31T14:39:02Z")
Back in t he 90s I was concerned because the only houses I ever saw being built were these huge, multistory, quarter million dollar McMansions. All the new housing developments looked like small apartment buildings. I wondered how anybody could afford such homes, or to be more precise, I thought that most people could not. And yet still the homes were built. Surely I was missing something. Whaddya know, I was right. We will know the housing industry has recovered when and if … and it’s a big if … developers start building smaller homes that people can afford. Turns out that when it comes to homes, price actually IS an object. Who knew? Well, anyone not blinded by greed did. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2010, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anyone-at-all-hopeful-about-the-economy-should-anyone-be/552055/24 "2010-08-31T15:56:30Z")
Well, according to Drudge, the Russian, German , Indian economies are growing at \>4% this year…while the USA stays flat. The Obama stimulus/porkulus has been revealed as a sham-the “stimulus” money was used to bail out local governments (and keep unionized state workers in their jobs). It had nothing to do with stimulus, and everything to do with keeping the Dems in power. But I digress…its all Bush’s fault! ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2010, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anyone-at-all-hopeful-about-the-economy-should-anyone-be/552055/25 "2010-08-31T15:58:47Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I’m optimistic. My Tim Hortons stock is up ~15% in just the last few months. That’s entirely due to me drinking ice caps all summer. You may see a decline as the weather turns colder. ---
**Author:** ![Carol\_the\_Impaler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Carol\_the\_Impaler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carol_the_Impaler)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2010, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anyone-at-all-hopeful-about-the-economy-should-anyone-be/552055/26 "2010-08-31T16:03:05Z")
Nah, it’s all those folks drowing their despair in donuts. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2010, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anyone-at-all-hopeful-about-the-economy-should-anyone-be/552055/27 "2010-08-31T16:51:06Z")
The stimulus package created a lot of jobs. it would have been much worse without it. It also kept people employed who might have lost their jobs. It was too small and included a tax cut that did nothing. So the whole package could have been better. The economy is foundering. It will not improve for a long time. Any serious fixing of the economy faces a repub no vote. They think they will get more votes if the economy is faltering in November. Poitics is an ugly business. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2010, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anyone-at-all-hopeful-about-the-economy-should-anyone-be/552055/28 "2010-08-31T16:55:30Z")
Unless you can define “foreseeable future”, I’m with **Chronos**. It will get better eventually. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2010, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anyone-at-all-hopeful-about-the-economy-should-anyone-be/552055/29 "2010-08-31T17:17:54Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > Today it was revealed that consumer spending was up for the last quarter, driven primarily by auto sales. So maybe you are not the only hopeful one. [Auto sales are at a 28 year low](http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-08-31/auto-sales-in-u-s-may-be-worst-in-28-years-in-august-as-buyers-shun-deals.html). ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2010, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anyone-at-all-hopeful-about-the-economy-should-anyone-be/552055/30 "2010-08-31T18:06:28Z")
But consumer spending IS up and it IS led by auto sales: > **[July personal income and spending higher, savings rate lower - Aug. 30, 2010](https://money.cnn.com/2010/08/30/news/economy/personal_income/)** > > Personal income rose in July, but Americans were saving a smaller portion of their disposable income. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2010, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anyone-at-all-hopeful-about-the-economy-should-anyone-be/552055/31 "2010-08-31T19:31:46Z")
Just for chuckles, allow me to quote the VP: “We’re turning this great ship of state around” Biden said. While progress isn’t fast enough, he said, “there isn’t any doubt it’s moving in the right direction.” ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2010, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anyone-at-all-hopeful-about-the-economy-should-anyone-be/552055/32 "2010-08-31T19:37:52Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > Well, according to Drudge, the Russian, German , Indian economies are growing at \>4% this year..while the USA stays flat. The Obama stimulus/porkulus has been revealed as a sham-the “stimulus” money was used to bail out local governments (and keep unionized state workers in their jobs). > It had nothing to do with stimulus, and everything to do with keeping the Dems in power. > But I digress..its all Bush’s fault! First of all, shut up. Second of all, the stimulus wasn’t used to bail out local governments, as widespread state government deficits are one of the prime drags on our economy. I am not hopeful for the economy, as I don’t believe the housing market has reached its bottom yet. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2010, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anyone-at-all-hopeful-about-the-economy-should-anyone-be/552055/33 "2010-08-31T21:09:49Z")
Quoth **Evil Captor** : > [@](#): > > And yet still the homes were built. Surely I was missing something. > > Whaddya know, I was right. Sounds to me like you were wrong: You weren’t missing anything; everyone else was. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Peyote\_Coyote](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5f8ce5/32.png) [@The\_Peyote\_Coyote](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Peyote_Coyote)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2010, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anyone-at-all-hopeful-about-the-economy-should-anyone-be/552055/34 "2010-08-31T22:25:49Z")
I am not hopeful at all. I think this country is going down like a $5 whore at a frat party. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2010, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anyone-at-all-hopeful-about-the-economy-should-anyone-be/552055/35 "2010-08-31T22:40:59Z")
> [@Duckster](#): > > If all you have is a hammer, everything you see is a nail. We are not in a recession, nor are we on the cusp of a depression. Both predispose a viable capitalist economic system where the economy expands and contracts over a continuum. However, since most people cannot think outside of the box, their view of this current mess is short-sighted and just plain wrong. > > I believe we are experiencing a fundamental fracturing of the economic system, coupled with a polarization and breakdown of the political system, and a social “it’s all about me” attitude. Everyone blames everyone else yet no one will look in the mirror. I fully expect one or both Houses of Congress to go Republican in the mid-term election, further stalemating any honest attempt to fix anything, let alone admit the problems are much, much worse than either side desires to share. Big money is already siding with one party to drive out the current president (as they are currently withholding their dollars and jobs so as to blame Obama for everything) in 2012 with unsustainable promises and the electorate will believe the political claptrap thinking a new president will turn it all around. The dishonest promises of 2010 and 2012 election will manifest themselves in mid-2013 way beyond current conditions. > > Worst case scenario is the economy will not recover to anything like the 1990s heyday for at least a generation, unemployment will not drop for at least five years (or more), assuming the electorate remains placated with their own self-centeredness and fed by the political bullshit. Then again, when people who have never experienced real poverty start stealing and robbing just to keep bread on the table, all bets are off. I pretty much agree with this. People keep talking about economic recovery like all the poison has been flushed and all the world has to do now is get better; my understanding is that [there’s still another crisis to get through.](http://macedoniaonline.eu/content/view/13229/52/) And after _that_, there’s all the fall-out from the political mis-management to deal with. I think “fundamental fracturing” is a good term for what’s happening and what’s to come. ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2010, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anyone-at-all-hopeful-about-the-economy-should-anyone-be/552055/36 "2010-08-31T22:48:53Z")
Keep in mind that the media, commentators, and political opponents like to trump up how bad the economy is to help sell whatever they are pushing. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2010, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anyone-at-all-hopeful-about-the-economy-should-anyone-be/552055/37 "2010-08-31T23:47:30Z")
> [@MOIDALIZE](#): > > > [@ralph124c](#): > > > > Well, according to Drudge, the Russian, German , Indian economies are growing at \>4% this year..while the USA stays flat. The Obama stimulus/porkulus has been revealed as a sham-the “stimulus” money was used to bail out local governments (and keep unionized state workers in their jobs). > > It had nothing to do with stimulus, and everything to do with keeping the Dems in power. > > But I digress..its all Bush’s fault! > > First of all, shut up. Second of all, the stimulus wasn’t used to bail out local governments, as widespread state government deficits are one of the prime drags on our economy. > Mods, arrest that man!:eek: > > I am not hopeful for the economy, as I don’t believe the housing market has reached its bottom yet. First of all, shut up. Second of all, the stimulus wasn’t used to bail out local governments, as widespread state government deficits are one of the prime drags on our economy. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2010, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anyone-at-all-hopeful-about-the-economy-should-anyone-be/552055/38 "2010-08-31T23:54:17Z")
> [@Cat\_Whisperer](#): > > I pretty much agree with this. People keep talking about economic recovery like all the poison has been flushed and all the world has to do now is get better; my understanding is that [there’s still another crisis to get through.](http://macedoniaonline.eu/content/view/13229/52/) And after _that_, there’s all the fall-out from the political mis-management to deal with. I think “fundamental fracturing” is a good term for what’s happening and what’s to come. That is just part of it. There is also the coming Option-ARM collapse [![](https://reasonablythinking.wordpress.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/monthlymortgagerateresets.jpg?w=402&h=369) ](https://reasonablythinking.wordpress.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/monthlymortgagerateresets.jpg?w=402&h=369) The coming collapse of residential real estate and mid-size banking > **[Elizabeth Warren Warns About Commercial Real Estate Crisis, 'Downward Spiral'...](https://www.huffpost.com/entry/commercial-real-estate-wa_n_458092)** > > Elizabeth Warren Warns About Commercial Real Estate Crisis, 'Downward Spiral' For Small Businesses, Local Banks And on top of that, the coming issues with peak oil, other potential natural resource shortages and a health care system that has priced itself out of the market (at least in the US). Plus within 5-10 years I’m sure the long term unemployment and trillion dollar deficits will start showing how unsustainable they really are. ---
**Author:** ![InterestedObserver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/838e76/32.png) [@InterestedObserver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/InterestedObserver)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2010, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anyone-at-all-hopeful-about-the-economy-should-anyone-be/552055/39 "2010-09-01T01:16:33Z")
I am hopeful that IF we can prevent the Republicans from re-taking control this November and/or in 2012, we will come out of this much better off than we were going in. If we don’t, if we go back to more of the same failed policies that got us in the current mess to begin with, we are doomed (at least to much more suffering and likely eventual revolution). There are signs that it is turning around, slowly but surely. Let’s be real here; we are still feeling the effects of past actions and it WILL take time to correct our course and bring us back to anything like an even keel. And of course, will take even longer due to the obstructionist agenda of many both in politics and the financial/business sector who are determined to keep things as bad as possible for as long as possible to harm some and help others.:smack: BTW, those unionized state workers whose jobs were saved are our TEACHERS, COPS, & FIREFIGHTERS, and not all of them kept their jobs; my daughter’s school has eliminated P.E. and 8 days of school this coming year due to cutbacks. It would have been MUCH worse without what aid there was (both federal and from a voter approved tax increase on the rich and big business…hey, Oregon STILL has one of the lowest tax burdens in the nation) And it just pisses me off when people trash unions out of hand; people DIED for the right to unionize and for a minimum wage and an 8 hr work day and overtime and safe working conditions and fair pensions, all the things UNIONS still defend and all of us take for granted. Back the fuck off. :mad: In the meantime, I am working on my degree and supporting my local businesses when I can (credit union member, buying locally whenever possible, going to the farmers and craft markets, budgeting in that dinner out at a local restaraunt or that purchase from a locally owned store). The key is to get and keep the money moving on a local level. THIS is what creates jobs. No investor or corporation can or will create a job when there are no customers to support it (major flaw in the Republican approach of redistributing the wealth to the already wealthy, but of course, creating jobs and benefitting the other 99% of us was never actually the intent).:dubious: ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2010, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anyone-at-all-hopeful-about-the-economy-should-anyone-be/552055/40 "2010-09-01T03:33:00Z")
The bankers are raking in huge bonuses and salaries after being responsible for the mess . They are back to wild speculation . Nobody stepped on them. Instead we gave them a ton of money and have not installed regulation to stop them. For many of us things have changed forever. For the bankers it is theft as usual. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anyone-at-all-hopeful-about-the-economy-should-anyone-be/552055.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anyone-at-all-hopeful-about-the-economy-should-anyone-be/552055.md?page=3)