# Is Anyone Calling US Women's Soccer Team "Chokers"? **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [July 18, 2011, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anyone-calling-us-womens-soccer-team-chokers/589499 "2011-07-18T21:45:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2011, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anyone-calling-us-womens-soccer-team-chokers/589499/41 "2011-07-19T15:28:46Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > They also missed some very clean shots during the game. They outplayed and outshot the Japanese team, but could not score very often. It was the most pressure packed game of their lives. Seems chokish to me. > If they did not practice penalty kicks ,then coaching sucks too.Penalty kicks determine if you win or lose . How much more important could they be? As did the Japanese. Maybe I saw a different game, but the one I saw had good attempts on both sides but also a lot of poor finishing. People here seem to think the US wiped the floor with the Japanese. That is not indicative of the match I saw. The US were on top, but in football being “on top” doesn’t mean anything, I’ve seen many, many games go to another team “against the run of play”. No one in the UK seems to imply that it is choking. Phrases like “couldn’t convert their chances” are far more commonly used. The argument Hoddle used was that a training ground cannot get close to simulating the pressure of the spot kick and as such it was pointless practicing. Allegedly, David Batty, the second England player to miss ultimately handing the game to Argentina, had never at any point taken a penalty in training. [http://www.wsc.co.uk/content/view/5431/38/](http://www.wsc.co.uk/content/view/5431/38/) > [@](#): > > At France 1998 Glen Hoddle freely admitted that his England team had not practiced penalties, reasoning that it would be impossible to create the pressured atmosphere in training – muddled thinking which has contributed to England losing four out of their last six penalty shoot-outs. David Batty – who missed the decisive fifth penalty – admitted after the tournament that he had never even taken a penalty in training before being entrusted with the responsibility by his manager. It is near impossible to create the same high-stakes environment of any tournament game, yet a manager wouldn’t practice defending and set piece routines. I, along with many England fans, disagreed quite strongly with Hoddle regarding this. ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2011, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anyone-calling-us-womens-soccer-team-chokers/589499/42 "2011-07-19T15:31:01Z")
> [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](#): > > I have definitely heard the term “choke” thrown around in reference to the US women’s soccer team on sports talk radio. I saw the final half hour or so of the game. Specifically, the penalty kick that sailed over the goal couldn’t be described as anything other than a choke. If someone takes a shot in the middle of the game and it sails over the bar, hell, say even a penalty in the first half, is that also a “choke”? Sometimes people just screw up. There’s a very good argument that a lot of missed penalties are due to people over-thinking it, trying to place the shot too much. Many argue that it is just best to run up and tonk the thing. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2011, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anyone-calling-us-womens-soccer-team-chokers/589499/43 "2011-07-19T15:59:47Z")
> [@amanset](#): > > If someone takes a shot in the middle of the game and it sails over the bar, hell, say even a penalty in the first half, is that also a “choke”? Sometimes people just screw up. There’s a very good argument that a lot of missed penalties are due to people over-thinking it, trying to place the shot too much. Many argue that it is just best to run up and tonk the thing. When they screw up over and over in the biggest game of their lives, they will be accused of choking. It may not be true, but it is opinion, one that many experts agree with. If they did this in an unimportant game, nothing would have been said. But this game brings enormous pressure, a choking pressure you have to overcome.They did not appear to overcome the stage . ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2011, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anyone-calling-us-womens-soccer-team-chokers/589499/44 "2011-07-19T16:41:29Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > When they screw up over and over in the biggest game of their lives, they will be accused of choking. It may not be true, but it is opinion, one that many experts agree with. > If they did this in an unimportant game, nothing would have been said. But this game brings enormous pressure, a choking pressure you have to overcome.They did not appear to overcome the stage . Which experts are these? None of the news reports I have read mentioned choking. Could that be to do with them being neutral? Dare I say it, just better reporters? Maybe just not so black and white, realising there are shades of grey between winning and choking? ---
**Author:** ![markdash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@markdash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/markdash)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2011, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anyone-calling-us-womens-soccer-team-chokers/589499/45 "2011-07-19T16:42:25Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > When they screw up over and over in the biggest game of their lives, they will be accused of choking. It may not be true, but it is opinion, one that many experts agree with. > If they did this in an unimportant game, nothing would have been said. But this game brings enormous pressure, a choking pressure you have to overcome.They did not appear to overcome the stage . Except for their two goals earlier in the game, right? I don’t understand how you can score a goal in the 104th minute, then because you let in the equalizer at 118’, all of a sudden the stage is too big. Wasn’t the stage “too big” all game long? ---
**Author:** ![Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a183cd/32.png) [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barkis_is_Willin)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2011, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anyone-calling-us-womens-soccer-team-chokers/589499/46 "2011-07-19T17:13:34Z")
> [@amanset](#): > > If someone takes a shot in the middle of the game and it sails over the bar, hell, say even a penalty in the first half, is that also a “choke”? Sometimes people just screw up. There’s a very good argument that a lot of missed penalties are due to people over-thinking it, trying to place the shot too much. Many argue that it is just best to run up and tonk the thing. I think the term choke is usually applied to plays of significance at the end of a game. Missing two free throws in the first quarter is not choking, but missing them in the final seconds when you’re down 1 point is choking. And you are probably correct that choking is often the result of over-thinking. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2011, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anyone-calling-us-womens-soccer-team-chokers/589499/47 "2011-07-19T17:54:27Z")
> [@markdash](#): > > Except for their two goals earlier in the game, right? > > I don’t understand how you can score a goal in the 104th minute, then because you let in the equalizer at 118’, all of a sudden the stage is too big. Wasn’t the stage “too big” all game long? It looked like it. They missed some easy shots all game long. Then in the shootout, it was even more obvious. They were clearly a better team. Yet snatched defeat from sure victory. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2011, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anyone-calling-us-womens-soccer-team-chokers/589499/48 "2011-07-19T18:00:55Z")
The Americans had 27 good shots and missed the net 22 times. The Japanese had 14 good shots ,missing 8. ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2011, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anyone-calling-us-womens-soccer-team-chokers/589499/49 "2011-07-19T18:55:58Z")
Giving up a one goal lead is not a choke because all it takes is, well, one goal, one kick, to equalize, so no choke on the main gameplay. I do think they choked in the penalty kicks and I will say it because it simply looked to me like they didn’t have confidence. Only Abby Wambach hit a confident convincing penalty, the others seemed to me like the players got a bit overwhelmed, whether it was physical or emotional I can’t say but the team did not choke, but it certainly seemed that certain players did. And yes, I have heard plenty of folks talking about it as a choke. i thin it is getting the same kind of discussion on whether it was a choke or not as a mens team would. ---
**Author:** ![markdash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@markdash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/markdash)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2011, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anyone-calling-us-womens-soccer-team-chokers/589499/50 "2011-07-19T19:02:51Z")
> [@Gangster\_Octopus](#): > > Giving up a one goal lead is not a choke because all it takes is, well, one goal, one kick, to equalize, so no choke on the main gameplay. I do think they choked in the penalty kicks and I will say it because it simply looked to me like they didn’t have confidence. Only Abby Wambach hit a confident convincing penalty, the others seemed to me like the players got a bit overwhelmed, whether it was physical or emotional I can’t say but the team did not choke, but it certainly seemed that certain players did. > > And yes, I have heard plenty of folks talking about it as a choke. i thin it is getting the same kind of discussion on whether it was a choke or not as a mens team would. But “choke” implies that you were ahead, and the pressure got to you, so you lost, right? If a team were down 3 goals, made a furious second-half rally to draw even, then lost in penalties by mis-hitting a bunch of balls, would people say they choked? Probably not. It’s the perception that you are close to victory, and then something happens that prevents that. Instead of just ascribing it to “shit happens” or a normal event on the pitch, people try to give it all sorts of meaning, like the players were wilting under the intense pressure. ---
**Author:** ![Laggard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9de053/32.png) [@Laggard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Laggard)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2011, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anyone-calling-us-womens-soccer-team-chokers/589499/51 "2011-07-19T19:14:10Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > Call me “Han” Solo one more time… Han Anyway, missing the first three PKs when something like 70-80% percent of all penalty kicks are converted is a huge choke. ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2011, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anyone-calling-us-womens-soccer-team-chokers/589499/52 "2011-07-19T19:22:05Z")
> [@markdash](#): > > But “choke” implies that you were ahead, and the pressure got to you, so you lost, right? I would disagree with this. For example, say a closely contested basketball game came down to a tie game with an 85% free throw shooter on the line. 0.1 seconds left and all he needs to do is make 1 of 2. But he misses both and the team goes on to lose. Would you not say that guy choked? I certainly would. Now how would you classify this famous 1994 Texas High School football game between Plano East and John Tyler. Plano East is down 41-17 with less than three minutes to play and manages a furious comeback and scores 4 TD to take the lead with less than 30 seconds to play, only to allow a TD return on the ensuing kickoff. Who choked? ---
**Author:** ![etv78](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d78d45/32.png) [@etv78](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/etv78)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2011, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anyone-calling-us-womens-soccer-team-chokers/589499/53 "2011-07-19T19:53:53Z")
IMO, It WAS a choke job. Why? Simple: the U.S. were a prohibitive favorite and blew two leads. The most recent widely known example I can think of is the Giants beating a 18-0 Patriots team in the Super Bowl. ---
**Author:** ![markdash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@markdash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/markdash)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2011, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anyone-calling-us-womens-soccer-team-chokers/589499/54 "2011-07-19T20:15:11Z")
So you are defining “choke” as when a prohibitively favored team loses? That’s a lot different than the usage I see/hear. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2011, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anyone-calling-us-womens-soccer-team-chokers/589499/55 "2011-07-19T20:33:35Z")
> [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > Wow, that’s… not at all what I think of when I think of choking. Why would anyone ever think that? > > Choking is just having the ability and opportunity to win and not doing it due to the pressure. Absolutely nothing about being a coward. There’s absolutely no moral judgement there. Jesus. You know, I thought about just asking what “choke” meant up front, but then I thought, no, come on, everybody knows what it means, why do you want to be all socratic in a conversation about sports. You’re asking “why would anyone ever think” everything in that post you quoted, or what? You can pretend it’s blowing your mind if you like, but I’ve heard the word “choke” in reference to a sporting event probably about 10,000 times, and it is, the vast majority of the time, accompanied by just direct insults to the person’s character. It is really obvious to me - and obvious to almost everybody else, I think - that “failure due to pressure” is not a different accusation from “you were scared.” It’s weird to me that this bothers you. It seems like the entire point of having a word for this situation. Look at the OP, even - “reviled,” “ridiculed,” “ugly word.” The argument was, I believe, that people are less willing to condemn women than they are men, because women get special soft treatment. The evidence was (the OP thought) that nobody’s calling the WNT chokers. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2011, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anyone-calling-us-womens-soccer-team-chokers/589499/56 "2011-07-19T20:39:08Z")
A choke is when a team had a win in the bag and they give it away, for any reason. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2011, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anyone-calling-us-womens-soccer-team-chokers/589499/57 "2011-07-19T20:40:12Z")
Losing concentration and/or over thinking are synonymous with being scared? That’s news to me. Also, what about the claims of moral judgement? ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2011, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anyone-calling-us-womens-soccer-team-chokers/589499/58 "2011-07-19T20:46:42Z")
> [@markdash](#): > > So you are defining “choke” as when a prohibitively favored team loses? > > That’s a lot different than the usage I see/hear. I don’t think it’s accurate or fair, but it is true that “choke,” like “chemistry,” is often invoked as an explanation for a mismatch between expectations and outcomes. That is, _the team I said was way better didn’t win_ = _they choked!_ rather than, _the team I said was way better didn’t win_ = _I was mistaken, the other team was better_. ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2011, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anyone-calling-us-womens-soccer-team-chokers/589499/59 "2011-07-19T20:56:23Z")
I think we have determined that there is no clear definition of choking. There are those that are undoubtedly choke jobs (Giants losing to the Eagles last year). There are those things which are not choke jobs (98% of all sporting events) and then there is a gray area where people disagree because of the somewhat subjective nature of choking. (BTW, my dictionary here defines it as “to perform badly in a critical situation”…eh…still leaves open as to what is performing badly and what is a critical situation) ---
**Author:** ![garygnu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/garygnu/32/2924_2.png) [@garygnu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/garygnu)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2011, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anyone-calling-us-womens-soccer-team-chokers/589499/60 "2011-07-19T21:02:31Z")
I think they choked. The first goal from Japan was the US team being complacent and careless. The second wasn’t so much, but they still had a late lead and gave it up. The penalty kicks were just sad. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anyone-calling-us-womens-soccer-team-chokers/589499.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anyone-calling-us-womens-soccer-team-chokers/589499.md?page=4)