# Is Anyone Calling US Women's Soccer Team "Chokers"? **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [July 18, 2011, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anyone-calling-us-womens-soccer-team-chokers/589499 "2011-07-18T21:45:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![markdash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@markdash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/markdash)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2011, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anyone-calling-us-womens-soccer-team-chokers/589499/101 "2011-07-21T23:41:27Z")
> [@garygnu](#): > > I’m not in to soccer, but the sports fan in me dislikes changing the game to detirmine a winner (inknockout games, anyway). Some ideas that spring to mind: 1) dueling corner kicks instead of penalty kicks. 2) keep playing normally, but continually reduce the number of players on each side. I’ve proposed this myself, but the response from knowledgeable footie fans is that the game is already too long at that point, so you’re risking injury and quality of play by continuing to extend the game. Plus, if you end up with 6-on-6, that’s as much a bastardization of the game as going to penalties. I’d be more in favor of slight rules tweaks to enable more scoring. Not because I think the sport needs more scoring, but if you allow more scoring, the likelihood of going to penalties is decreased significantly. ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2011, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anyone-calling-us-womens-soccer-team-chokers/589499/102 "2011-07-21T23:57:03Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > With due respect, no, it’s not a relevant example. The claim made was that FIFA considers penalty kicks a “silly” way to determine the outcome of a game. The FA Cup is not a FIFA event. > > FIFA has used penalty kicks to determine matches since 1966. If they think it’s silly they sure have tolerated it for a long time. I think it is relevant. I was comparing the changes in one massive money-spinning competition with another. When was the shootout incorporated into the world cup? Wiki says that the first one in qualifying was in 1977 and the first in the finals was in 1982. They may have started using them in 1966 for certain competitions but it was not widespread until much later. ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2011, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anyone-calling-us-womens-soccer-team-chokers/589499/103 "2011-07-21T23:58:48Z")
> [@garygnu](#): > > I’m not in to soccer, but the sports fan in me dislikes changing the game to detirmine a winner (inknockout games, anyway). Some ideas that spring to mind: 1) dueling corner kicks instead of penalty kicks. 2) keep playing normally, but continually reduce the number of players on each side. Number 2 has always been my favourite. Seems obvious to me. Just needs an enterprising competition somewhere to trial it. ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2011, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anyone-calling-us-womens-soccer-team-chokers/589499/104 "2011-07-22T00:02:25Z")
> [@markdash](#): > > I’ve proposed this myself, but the response from knowledgeable footie fans is that the game is already too long at that point, so you’re risking injury and quality of play by continuing to extend the game. Plus, if you end up with 6-on-6, that’s as much a bastardization of the game as going to penalties. > > I’d be more in favor of slight rules tweaks to enable more scoring. Not because I think the sport needs more scoring, but if you allow more scoring, the likelihood of going to penalties is decreased significantly. Two points. Shorten ‘normal’ extra time. Say fifteen minutes normal and the lost a man every five mi urea after that. That way after the same amount of time playing extra time each team would be down to eight players. Five a side is a common form of football. Children often start with it and it is the norm for indoor football IIRC. penalty shootouts are only ever used to determine who progresses after a drawn game. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2011, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anyone-calling-us-womens-soccer-team-chokers/589499/105 "2011-07-22T02:10:25Z")
> [@amanset](#): > > I think it is relevant. I was comparing the changes in one massive money-spinning competition with another. > > When was the shootout incorporated into the world cup? Wiki says that the first one in qualifying was in 1977 and the first in the finals was in 1982. > > They may have started using them in 1966 for certain competitions but it was not widespread until much later. The claim at hand was whether FIFA didn’t like penalty kicks. Whether or not the folks who run the FA Cup like penalty kicks isn’t a relevant issue. Actually, my mistake; FIFA adopted the penalty shoot-out in 1970 (well, by extension; IFAB adopted it.) But that’s still 41 years. I’d like to see some evidence they think it’s “silly.” ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2011, 12:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anyone-calling-us-womens-soccer-team-chokers/589499/106 "2011-07-22T12:11:31Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > If you want to say the three who missed their penalties were choking, I suppose you’re entitled. Only one of the three actually _missed_ her penalty shot–she kicked it over the goal. That can be considered a choke, but it happens sometimes. Even to the best players. The other two shots were not misses at all. Rather, they were saved by the Japanese goalkeeper. One of those shots was not the very best of efforts, but it was on goal and the keeper just happened to guess correctly. The other save started with a fine shot, but the goalkeeper made an outstanding “skate save” by deflecting it with her foot even though she had jumped the wrong way. Just an outstanding save, not a choke by the USA shooter. As for the regulation time and extra-time play the USA didn’t choke at all, They never built more than a one-goal lead, and the Japanese managed to find an equalizer after each of the USA’s two goals. I’ve heard people say that the USA Women couldn’t finish. In the absolute sense, this is somewhat true if you consider finishing only to be actually putting the ball in the net. To me however, a team that “can’t finish” is a team that can get the ball up to its strikers near the penalty area, but then the strikers either have a a horrible first touch _(see: USA Men’s National Team)_ and/or there is not skillful support for the strikers once they receive the ball because the attacking midfielders have poor understanding of creating space and moving into space _(see: USA Men’s National Team)_ Poor finishing is when the midfielders have no better ideas than just booting the ball as far forward as they can to a striker who is all alone with 3 defenders marking him _(see: USA Men’s National Team)_. Poor finishing is when most of your attacking players (defenders too) have poor passing and trapping ability so they lose chance after chance in scoring position because they simply can’t handle the ball well enough to create a good scoring opportunity _(see: USA Men’s National Team)_. _None_ of those things happened to the USA Women in the World Cup final. They had excellent ball movement and positioning that the Japanese defenders had almost no answer for. The USA team got outstanding shots off but incredibly, they kept hitting the post or the crossbar. That’s not choking–that’s rotten luck. Other than ONE of the penalty kick attempts, the USA Women absolutely did _not_ choke. They played a very strong game and were beaten by a very savvy, industrious, and deserving Japanese side that totally earned the win. Anyone who says that the American women choked is insulting both the Japanese and the American sides, and demonstrating a rather poor understanding of top-level international soccer. ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2011, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anyone-calling-us-womens-soccer-team-chokers/589499/107 "2011-07-22T12:25:41Z")
> [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](#): > > I have definitely heard the term “choke” thrown around in reference to the US women’s soccer team on sports talk radio. This was American sports talk radio, no? Their blustery, testosterone-flooded, frustrated fourth-string JV bench-warmer opinions are–even on a good day–usually nothing more than reactionary and juvenile shriekings even when it comes to sports they actually follow like American football, basketball, and baseball. These gasbag bozos commenting on soccer? It is to laugh. Their opinions on that sport mean less than nothing. ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2011, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anyone-calling-us-womens-soccer-team-chokers/589499/108 "2011-07-22T12:28:37Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > When they screw up over and over in the biggest game of their lives, they will be accused of choking. Thing is–they didn’t “screw up over and over”. ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2011, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anyone-calling-us-womens-soccer-team-chokers/589499/109 "2011-07-22T12:32:50Z")
> [@Laggard](#): > > Anyway, missing the first three PKs when something like 70-80% percent of all penalty kicks are converted is a huge choke. Once again, they only missed one spot kick. Two of them were saved by the keeper. ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2011, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anyone-calling-us-womens-soccer-team-chokers/589499/110 "2011-07-22T12:58:45Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally Posted by **Yookeroo** > You guys do realize that FIFA records shootouts as draws? Japan won the shootout and the Cup. The game itself was a draw. > [@spark240](#): > > I do realize that, though I think it’s a silly convention. It’s not a silly convention at all. The two teams finished the game level therefore it is a draw. It’s not possible to consider it anything _other_ than a draw. The only reason that “kicks from the penalty mark” (as they are officially known) take place is because in the knock-out rounds of a tournament there needs to be some way to determine which of the drawn teams will advance to the next round. As with any draw in football, nobody wins the game, but one team must advance (or in the case of the tournament final, be determined as the tournament champion). What would be silly (and illogical) would be to call a team the winner of a match when the match finished level. ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2011, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anyone-calling-us-womens-soccer-team-chokers/589499/111 "2011-07-22T13:29:52Z")
> [@amanset](#): > > Five a side is a common form of football. Children often start with it and it is the norm for indoor football IIRC. penalty shootouts are only ever used to determine who progresses after a drawn game. Five a side isn’t played on a full sized pitch though! ---
**Author:** ![borschevsky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/97f17d/32.png) [@borschevsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/borschevsky)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2011, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anyone-calling-us-womens-soccer-team-chokers/589499/112 "2011-07-22T15:16:54Z")
> [@Baron\_Greenback](#): > > Five a side isn’t played on a full sized pitch though! Well then the obvious solution is to shorten the pitch as overtime progresses and players are removed. Each side starts with a keeper plus 10 players, so each new extra time period reduces the number of players by 10% and the length of the pitch by 10%. When it gets down to 3 vs. 3, the pitch will only be 30 yards long with the 18 yard boxes overlapping, and the game will become very exciting! ---
**Author:** ![KarlGrenze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dbc845/32.png) [@KarlGrenze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGrenze)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2011, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anyone-calling-us-womens-soccer-team-chokers/589499/113 "2011-07-23T01:17:31Z")
Has anyone else checked out the stats on the US team? They’re up in the FIFA website. Other than the game against France, most of their games have very low goals to shots ratios, even compared with the opposing team. For people saying they choke on missing the shots early in the game… That wasn’t choking, _that’s how they had been playing most of the tournament_. Also, I repeat that Japan, while an underdog, was not an unreasonably bad team. They defeated the reigning champions (Germany)! They defeated the other time that had managed to win over the US (Sweden)! Third, I second what was said above about the penalties. Two of the three kicks missed were awesome saves from the Japanese goalkeeper, credit goes to her for savig two perfectly good kicks from entering the goal. Hope Solo couldn’t save at least one of them, and another one, even though she went to the correct side, escaped through her arms. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2011, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anyone-calling-us-womens-soccer-team-chokers/589499/114 "2011-07-23T03:42:57Z")
> [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](#): > > Thing is–they didn’t “screw up over and over”. Thing is they did. 27 shots during the game and 5 on net. That is a mere 22 out of 27 screw p. Big screw up. In the open field they controlled the ball and dominated. but when it got tough, putting it in the net they failed miserably. That is choke city. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2011, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anyone-calling-us-womens-soccer-team-chokers/589499/115 "2011-07-23T04:25:29Z")
> [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](#): > > Only one of the three actually _missed_ her penalty shot–she kicked it over the goal. That can be considered a choke, but it happens sometimes. Even to the best players. > > The other two shots were not misses at all. Rather, they were saved by the Japanese goalkeeper. One of those shots was not the very best of efforts, but it was on goal and the keeper just happened to guess correctly. The other save started with a fine shot, but the goalkeeper made an outstanding “skate save” by deflecting it with her foot even though she had jumped the wrong way. Just an outstanding save, not a choke by the USA shooter. This is flat out wrong. All three of the missed shots were godawful. Besides, a missed penalty is not restricted to one that isn’t on frame. What’s with all the ragging on the men’s team? None of that’s relevant. If they did what happened in that final, you better believe they’d be called chokers. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2011, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anyone-calling-us-womens-soccer-team-chokers/589499/116 "2011-07-23T04:35:11Z")
85 percent of penalty shots score. They were easy shots. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2011, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anyone-calling-us-womens-soccer-team-chokers/589499/117 "2011-07-23T04:55:08Z")
Clearly the Japanese women had their sushi that day, and the Americans did not get their cheeseburgers. ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2011, 10:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anyone-calling-us-womens-soccer-team-chokers/589499/118 "2011-07-23T10:09:25Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > The claim at hand was whether FIFA didn’t like penalty kicks. Whether or not the folks who run the FA Cup like penalty kicks isn’t a relevant issue. > > Actually, my mistake; FIFA adopted the penalty shoot-out in 1970 (well, by extension; IFAB adopted it.) But that’s still 41 years. I’d like to see some evidence they think it’s “silly.” But it was rarely used until much later. The first shootout in a world cup finals was in 1982. Until 1990 there had only been four ever. And regarding that adoption in 1970: [http://ssbra.org/html/laws/IFABarc/pdf/1970/1970wpag.pdf](http://ssbra.org/html/laws/IFABarc/pdf/1970/1970wpag.pdf) > [@](#): > > The Federation Internationela de Football Association made reference to the practice of drawing lots to determine which of two teams, in a drawn match, should qualify for the next round of competition, and suggested a new method i.e., the taking of penalty kicks, subject to the following conditions:- > > … > > They enquired the views of the Working Party who, although not entirely satisfied with the proposed new method, recommend its acceptance. So when FIFA adopted it they said that they weren’t satisfied. Basically, they considered it better than the previous solution, the drawing of lots. I’d agree with that, but it doesn’t mean it is the _best_ solution. Note also that “determine which of two teams, in a drawn match, should qualify for the next round of competition” explains the “convention” that someone here didn’t agree with. Well there it is in black and white. ---
**Author:** ![bucketybuck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@bucketybuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bucketybuck)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2011, 10:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anyone-calling-us-womens-soccer-team-chokers/589499/119 "2011-07-23T10:29:58Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > Thing is they did. 27 shots during the game and 5 on net. That is a mere 22 out of 27 screw p. Big screw up. In the open field they controlled the ball and dominated. but when it got tough, putting it in the net they failed miserably. That is choke city. Will you stop talking this shite. Its very misleading to keep saying that they had 27 shots on goal without taking into account that not all shots are equal. Not all of those shots were from eight yards with only the keeper to beat. A winger attempts a cross from out on the right, instead of going into the box, it screws right and goes out over the line three yards past the post. Thats a shot on goal, off target. Was it poor finishing? A lot of those 27 shots will have been rushed shots from twenty yards only taken because there was no other play on at that time, or a shot that hit a defender on the way through and went for a corner, but which still counted as an attempt on goal. Poor finishing? Is it choking because a defender near killed herself to get in front of the ball? A high shot on goal versus shot on target ratio can be indicative of poor finishing, but it is certainly not the evidence of choking that you are so falsely throwing around in this thread. Want an example? Barcelona had **nineteen** shots on goal in the European cup final. They only scored _three_ goals. I guess they choked, right? Frankly, rubbish like this only makes you look foolish to those of us who have followed the sport all our lives. Finally, can anybody link to where somebody said the Bayern - Man Utd European cup final was a choke? I want to laugh at them too. ---
**Author:** ![bucketybuck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@bucketybuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bucketybuck)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2011, 10:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anyone-calling-us-womens-soccer-team-chokers/589499/120 "2011-07-23T10:32:05Z")
> [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](#): > > Once again, they only missed one spot kick. Two of them were saved by the keeper. :smack: No. They missed three penalties. Deal with it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anyone-calling-us-womens-soccer-team-chokers/589499.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anyone-calling-us-womens-soccer-team-chokers/589499.md?page=7)