# Is ape sign language completely dead? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [February 19, 2026, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-ape-sign-language-completely-dead/1027824 "2026-02-19T18:57:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2026, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-ape-sign-language-completely-dead/1027824/81 "2026-02-25T22:58:24Z")
> [@RivkahChaya](#): > > I have never disputed that apes can learn words. But that is not language. My dog knows a ton of words. I had a previous dog who knew over 100 words. She even knew a few in combination, and knew the difference for example, between “bath,” and “bathtub.” But she still didn’t know syntax. So apes can learn words (as can dogs), but there’s no convincing evidence that apes can use syntax. * * * Separately, I recall a skeptical article written during the 1970s that noted that apes never use sign language among themselves: they only use it with humans. That would tend to support the Clever Hans hypothesis. But according to [the wiki article on Nim Chimsky](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nim_Chimpsky), Nim in fact used sign language with his ape-friend Sally: > In her biography of Nim, Hess writes that the chimps became inseparable. Nim taught Sally how to sign DRINK, BANANA and GUM, three of the words he used most frequently at the ranch.[[41]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nim_Chimpsky#cite_note-41) He was frequently seen signing SORRY to Sally after they had a squabble. [Animal communication](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_communication) exists and this claim is not controversial. But AFAIK it’s not understood well enough to make a confident taxonomy covering the range from bacterial mats to human language in granular detail. ETA: If you had told me during the 1970s or 1980s that an animal could have a vocabulary of 60 or more words, I would have been surprised. But there are dogs that apparently have this capacity. Also [birds](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talking_bird). ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2026, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-ape-sign-language-completely-dead/1027824/82 "2026-02-25T23:28:37Z")
I think my first dog might have had a vocabulary that large, but they were all synonyms for “walk”. ---
**Author:** ![eburacum45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eburacum45/32/8690_2.png) [@eburacum45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eburacum45)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2026, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-ape-sign-language-completely-dead/1027824/83 "2026-02-25T23:38:12Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > They thought Mandela had died in prison, while I have a clear memory of listening to live reporting on the radio as he walked out of prison that day in 1990, so it never even occurred to me that anyone could make that mistake. Off topic for this thread, but the Mandela effect probably arose because of the death in custody of Steve Biko, or maybe another activist. It’s certainly not a mistake I ever made, so I’m not sure. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2026, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-ape-sign-language-completely-dead/1027824/84 "2026-02-26T04:48:57Z")
In other words, there never was a real “effect”. Like many other “facts” (including some about animal communication), it is fakelore all the way down! ---
**Author:** ![RivkahChaya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rivkahchaya/32/8919_2.png) [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2026, 11:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-ape-sign-language-completely-dead/1027824/85 "2026-02-26T11:55:44Z")
It’s also not completely off-topic here. People reading news and watching National Geographic, and being left with the impression that apes were learning language, were being suckered by fake news. I’m not sure who we can fairly blame for the fake news, though-- lying trainers who were usually psychologists out of their field, or gullible journalists. Or even animal rights activists to eager for an animal to stand up and say " No!" ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2026, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-ape-sign-language-completely-dead/1027824/86 "2026-02-26T14:58:56Z")
> [@RivkahChaya](#): > > watching National Geographic, and being left with the impression that apes were learning language, were being suckered by fake news. More like reading Nat Geo. I remember the original articles about Koko in what? the 70s? Why would I think they weren’t true? And an accurate representation? This wasn’t the Nat Enq. ---
**Author:** ![Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmer_j.fudd/32/1211_2.png) [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elmer_J.Fudd)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2026, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-ape-sign-language-completely-dead/1027824/87 "2026-02-26T15:13:37Z")
> [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](#): > > the 70s? I believed a lot of kooky stuff in the 1970s just because everybody else did…and because I was 13. ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2026, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-ape-sign-language-completely-dead/1027824/88 "2026-02-26T16:07:03Z")
> [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](#): > > I believed a lot of kooky stuff in the 1970s just because everybody else did…and because I was 13 Believing it out of Frank Edwards’ “Stranger than Science”\* or TV’s _In Search of…_ is one thing. You should be able to trust Nat Geo back then. \*First time I read the book, I’m like “They have names and dates! They couldn’t print these if they weren’t true.” They could, and they did. Sadly. ---
**Author:** ![Lucas\_Jackson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lucas_jackson/32/303_2.png) [@Lucas\_Jackson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lucas_Jackson)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2026, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-ape-sign-language-completely-dead/1027824/89 "2026-02-26T16:10:04Z")
> [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](#): > > They couldn’t print these if they weren’t true. It took my gullible self quite a while to learn this. I guess I blame my upbringing. Authority figures (parents, cops, presidents, news reporters) don’t lie. ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2026, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-ape-sign-language-completely-dead/1027824/90 "2026-02-26T16:23:31Z")
> [@Lucas\_Jackson](#): > > Authority figures (parents, cops, presidents, news reporters) don’t lie. Back to the OP, I would think that, from reading an article about Koko in a reputable magazine, that the scientist would not deliberately misrepresent themselves or their research. Even as a teen, I knew about peer review. If Patterson made claims that were not true, she’d be taken apart, metaphorically. Repeatability of results is crucial. And Nat Geo would look stupid repeating them, taking a hit to their reputation. If they publish lies by Patterson, what are we supposed to think about their articles by Goodall and Fossey? My obviously erroneous assumption: actual ASL speakers were also having independent conversations with Koko. Because, they said Koko could communicate. It would be trivally easy to verify that! And yet…they did print lies. Didn’t anyone check? Why did they take Patterson at face value? Having another species that could used even a rudimentary language would be an astounding discovery. (trust but) Verify! Why did they take Elizabeth Holmes’ claims at face value, without doing even a quantum of independent verification? Damned if I know. ---
**Author:** ![echoreply](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/echoreply/32/3641_2.png) [@echoreply](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/echoreply)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2026, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-ape-sign-language-completely-dead/1027824/91 "2026-02-26T17:38:54Z")
Also, some of it is just how science works. Initial findings are later found to be wrong. That is to be expected with the scientific method, and is everything working exactly as designed. If we already knew the answer, then why would anyone have bothered with the experiment in the first place? Scientists, being human, can sometimes get very attached to their non-replicating results, and spend the rest of their career trying to prove they were right the first time. In this case, there was a very exciting finding. Part of the reason it was so exciting was that it was unexpected. Because it was unexpected (and involves cute/ferocious animals), it got reported on by the popular press. Then, as is the curse of exciting and unexpected findings, it failed to replicate. Sometimes replication failure is because the first result was due to dumb luck. Other times it’s because the first result wasn’t actually the result that was advertised, which seems to be the case here. Other topic: have cetaceans been mentioned? Due to the rule of cute/magnificent animals pushing marginal results into the popular press, I’ve seen several stories about whale and dolphin songs possibly being language, rather than simple signaling. I do not have the knowledge to judge if this is just scientists and science reporters getting a little carried away with “wouldn’t it be cool if…” or if there is real support in the data to call it language. Even if there is some evidence of the songs being language, that doesn’t mean it _is_ language, because again, the whole point of the scientific method is to prove your hypothesis is wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2026, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-ape-sign-language-completely-dead/1027824/92 "2026-02-26T18:06:27Z")
> [@echoreply](#): > > Also, some of it is just how science works. Initial findings are later found to be wrong. That is to be expected with the scientific method, and is everything working exactly as designed. If we already knew the answer, then why would anyone have bothered with the experiment in the first place? This. National Geographic was describing the work of credentialed scientists. This century it was discovered that psychology had a replication problem, but I don’t expect Nat Geo to be more clairvoyant than most psychologists in the field. Note that there was vigorous debate about Koko et al in the late 1970s: it was dubbed “The Ape Wars” in the popular scientific press. My understanding was that _at best_ Koko et al were nowhere near the level of a human 2 year old. I don’t find either position to be implausible _a priori_, though the Koko study lacked rigor and the conclusions as reported in the popular press were in error. (ETA: Erm, [I see from wiki](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koko_(gorilla)) that some were claiming that Koko had an IQ of 70 or 90. I don’t recall claims that expansive.) Semi relevant: today’s New York Times has an article about cross-specie communication between a caterpillar/butterfly and certain ant colonies: the former tricks the latter. Gifted. “Trilobites: The Password That Lets Caterpillars Hide in an Ant’s Lair: Some butterfly species can’t grow unless they trick ants into taking them home with a complex rhythmic signal.” [https://www.nytimes.com/2026/02/25/science/caterpillar-ant-language.html?unlocked\_article\_code=1.PFA.NSqN.2oxVuauaYjU1&smid=url-share](https://www.nytimes.com/2026/02/25/science/caterpillar-ant-language.html?unlocked_article_code=1.PFA.NSqN.2oxVuauaYjU1&smid=url-share) > [@echoreply](#): > > Other topic: have cetaceans been mentioned? Due to the rule of cute/magnificent animals pushing marginal results into the popular press, I’ve seen several stories about whale and dolphin songs possibly being language, rather than simple signaling. See my multi-decade thread here and note the shifts in conventional wisdom: > [@Language: If whales had it, would we know?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/language-if-whales-had-it-would-we-know/62392): > > If whales sang love sonnets or expositions on philosophy and mathematics to one another, would we know about it? I suppose that this is a signal processing problem: given what we know about whales’ listening and vocalization abilities, is there an upper bound to the complexity of what they could be saying to one another? Ditto for elephants. ---
**Author:** ![Q.Q.Switcheroo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/q.q.switcheroo/32/5713_2.png) [@Q.Q.Switcheroo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.Q.Switcheroo)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2026, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-ape-sign-language-completely-dead/1027824/93 "2026-02-26T18:21:53Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > “Trilobites: The Password That Lets Caterpillars Hide in an Ant’s Lair: Some butterfly species can’t grow unless they trick ants into taking them home with a complex rhythmic signal.” I hear they’re researching similar behavior in swordfish. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![GargoyleWB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gargoylewb/32/199_2.png) [@GargoyleWB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GargoyleWB)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2026, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-ape-sign-language-completely-dead/1027824/94 "2026-02-26T22:01:10Z")
We have the dog buttons also. Our dog now regularly uses “snack” and “hungry”. Snack is when she wants some minor treat, which she’ll hit throughout the day. Hungry is for breakfast and dinner, which she will sit next to and mash repeatedly like clockwork at 8am and 6pm. We’re working on “play” and “potty” but she just prefers nipping us in the ass for communicating those wants. It’s been fun so far and our expectations are low, definitely no sonnets but maybe we’ll get a haiku in the future. ---
**Author:** ![Beckdawrek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beckdawrek/32/3647_2.png) [@Beckdawrek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beckdawrek)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2026, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-ape-sign-language-completely-dead/1027824/95 "2026-02-26T22:52:44Z")
Good luck. It’s fun ain’t it? I found if you change the word the button says if often creates a new interest in that button. Like poopy(sing songy) for potty. You can hide the treat/food button, but be aware they will look for it. ---
**Author:** ![Lucas\_Jackson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lucas_jackson/32/303_2.png) [@Lucas\_Jackson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lucas_Jackson)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2026, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-ape-sign-language-completely-dead/1027824/96 "2026-02-26T22:54:45Z")
> [@GargoyleWB](#): > > Our dog now regularly uses “snack” and “hungry”. My cat accomplishes this by parking himself at my feet and staring at me. ~ What were they hoping to gain by teaching chimps sign language in the first place? I ask this sincerely. Surely not just to let us know when they were hungry or wanted out. Maybe an insight into simian philosophy? ---
**Author:** ![Beckdawrek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beckdawrek/32/3647_2.png) [@Beckdawrek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beckdawrek)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2026, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-ape-sign-language-completely-dead/1027824/97 "2026-02-26T22:59:45Z")
With primates I think it was to see how far along they were in thinking. They are so close to us, gene-wise. Surely there’s a common understanding. But we’ll never know for sure until one of them breaks out in a diatribe for the ages, vocally. ---
**Author:** ![EinsteinsHund](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/einsteinshund/32/8400_2.png) [@EinsteinsHund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EinsteinsHund)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2026, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-ape-sign-language-completely-dead/1027824/98 "2026-02-26T23:03:11Z")
> [@Beckdawrek](#): > > But we’ll never know for sure until one of them breaks out in a diatribe for the ages, vocally. Won’t happen. Chimps don’t have the apparatus to speak, throat, vocal chords and tongue, like humans. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2026, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-ape-sign-language-completely-dead/1027824/99 "2026-02-26T23:16:57Z")
Which was the rationale for using Sign in the first place - no other living primate can speak as humans do, but they have the dexterity to Sign. It’s not the apes’ fault that they didn’t have the rest of what was required to use a human language as a human does. It was the fault of humans for assuming more was going on than actually was. ---
**Author:** ![Lucas\_Jackson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lucas_jackson/32/303_2.png) [@Lucas\_Jackson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lucas_Jackson)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2026, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-ape-sign-language-completely-dead/1027824/100 "2026-02-27T00:01:09Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > It was the fault of humans for assuming more was going on than actually was. Famous comedian referencing Dr. Dolittle: “If I could talk to the animals… I wouldn’t, because they’re animals” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-ape-sign-language-completely-dead/1027824.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-ape-sign-language-completely-dead/1027824.md?page=6)