# Is argument becoming impossible? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 31, 2015, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-argument-becoming-impossible/741843 "2015-12-31T19:11:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2016, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-argument-becoming-impossible/741843/21 "2016-01-03T05:08:06Z")
Helpful: When you are able to admit to yourself that you have been wrong a few times, tell us how you feel about forcing your gospel on those who are “wrong”. You certainly are in the right place. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2016, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-argument-becoming-impossible/741843/22 "2016-01-03T20:57:37Z")
The right place to be proven wrong again and again until he gets used to it? ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2016, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-argument-becoming-impossible/741843/23 "2016-01-03T22:21:30Z")
“Freedom of speech means I can say anything, no matter how pathetically stupid, and nobody can inform me that I am pathetically stupid.” ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2016, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-argument-becoming-impossible/741843/24 "2016-01-03T22:24:22Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > I have a strong suspicion about the OP’s beliefs, about the beliefs of the people he wants to argue with, and what he wants to argue about. But I’ll stick to general, abstract principles. > > To use myself as an example, I’m about 50 pounds overweight. Therefore, it makes perfect sense that friends and loved ones might feel compelled to tell me, “Listen, I don’t want to hurt your feelings, but at your age, that’s not healthy, and you really need to start exercising and eating less junk.” > > Those people mean well, and have my best interests at heart. But there DOES come a point when each of them has to realize, “I’ve said my piece, and I hope he listens, for his own good. But if I push the subject any farther, I may lose his friendship for good. So, I hope I’ve planted a seed in his mind and that he’ll follow my advice later.” > > If they CAN’T stop, even after I’ve told them, “All right, you’ve made your point, now drop the subject,” well, I’ll probably just avoid them like the plague forever. > So, the OP has to ask himself, “Which is more important- the relationship I have with this person or being right?” > > That’s true no matter WHAT topic you want to argue about. When Jesus sent his Apostles out to preach, he told them, “If people will not welcome you, move on, shaking the dust from your feet.” Note that well. He didn’t say, “Keep screaming the Gospel to them, even if they don’t want to hear it.” > > That’s true of weight, religion, politics or anything else. If Grandma keeps telling you, “Listen to Rush Limbaugh with me” after you’ve told her a hundred times that you don’t want to, she’s being a jerk. On the other hand, if you keep trying to convince Grandma that God doesn’t exist, long after she’s told you to keep your blasphemy to yourself, then you’re a jerk. > > Get this: It doesn’t MATTER whether Rush Limbaugh is a genius or whether God exists. If you care about keeping a loving relationship with your Grandma, you have to respect each other’s boundaries. But you don’t believe that being 50 pounds overweight is perfectly healthy, do you? You don’t go around saying that the obesity mafia is a fraud funded by the diet industry and being fat is actually better for you, do you? That’s a little more analogous to some of the situations we have today. ---
**Author:** ![bob\_2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bob_2/32/3341_2.png) [@bob\_2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bob_2)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2016, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-argument-becoming-impossible/741843/25 "2016-01-06T16:31:19Z")
I have always argued. I bought my children up arguing. I felt that it was a useful life skill to argue a point, to negotiate, to gain some advantage, by argument rather than by force. They still argue - you should try a family meal at our house for lively debate. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2016, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-argument-becoming-impossible/741843/26 "2016-01-06T20:29:49Z")
> [@Helpful](#): > > **Is argument becoming impossible?** No, it isn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2016, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-argument-becoming-impossible/741843/27 "2016-01-06T20:49:31Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Just so we’re all not he same page, total posts are now 3. Any updates on this, John? Keep us posted! ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2016, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-argument-becoming-impossible/741843/28 "2016-01-06T22:10:19Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > No, it isn’t. Yes, it is. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2016, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-argument-becoming-impossible/741843/29 "2016-01-06T22:16:45Z")
I think there’s a certain disconnect among many people today about beliefs vs. facts and woo vs. science. There really isn’t any productive discussion there, because one side or the other will get fed up. I mean, if some chef were to come in and tell me [how organic food is healthier, and sugar is poisonous, and how tomatoes cause inflammation](http://www.foxnews.com/leisure/2016/01/06/why-tom-brady-and-gisele-bundchen-dont-eat-tomatoes/), I can’t really have a productive discussion or argument with him. He’s not coming from a rational point of view that’s backed up by anything but woo and pseudoscience, and he’ll probably claim I’m pushing the “Big Farma” agenda or some other stupid nonsense. It can’t really be a discussion or debate, because one side is actually, factually and empirically wrong, and the other is not. It’s like arguing with a Flat Earther or someone with a geocentric belief in the Celestial Spheres. ---
**Author:** ![Chihuahua](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/dec6dc/32.png) [@Chihuahua](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chihuahua)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2016, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-argument-becoming-impossible/741843/30 "2016-01-06T22:35:04Z")
Human beings have always had an extraordinarily high resistance to admitting when they are wrong. I don’t know if there is a specific psychological term for it (there probably is) but people overwhelmingly tend to double-down on a belief when someone tries to tell them they are wrong, and they perform extraordinary mental gymnastics to avoid the cognitive dissonance that comes with admitting they have made a wrong choice or done something stupid. But that’s not quite what the OP was asking… I’d be very interested in seeing if there are any studies that back this up, but anecdotally there definitely seems to be a trend of people increasingly thinking that their beliefs cannot be challenged, that someone who tells them they are wrong is an enemy. They place self-esteem above critical thinking and put their belief over fact. I also see related narcissistic beliefs: The notion that “offending” someone through criticism or disagreement is an unforgivable offense, the idea that personal disagreements or hurt feelings require legal intervention, the idea that everyone is “owed” something from the world regardless of what they contribute. I’d be quick to blame grown-ups for coddling them to much with the “Everyone’s-a-Winner” mentality, but I don’t think that’s it. I think pandering media advertisements, social media platforms, celebrity tabloids, and many other avenues all contribute to making each individual feel as though they are, or should be, “special,” and that a person who gets offended when their ideas are challenged is reacting to a perceived attack on their narcissistic ego. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2016, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-argument-becoming-impossible/741843/31 "2016-01-06T23:12:29Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Any updates on this, John? Keep us posted! The OP now has 1200 posts and has been made a member of the SDSAB. C’mon, argue with me, I dares ya! ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2016, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-argument-becoming-impossible/741843/32 "2016-01-07T01:47:17Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > Yes, it is. No, it isn’t. ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2016, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-argument-becoming-impossible/741843/33 "2016-01-07T02:00:37Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > No, it isn’t. This isn’t an argument, it’s just contradiction. ---
**Author:** ![John\_DiFool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_difool/32/19543_2.png) [@John\_DiFool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_DiFool)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2016, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-argument-becoming-impossible/741843/34 "2016-01-07T13:53:09Z")
DON’T GIVE ME THAT, YOU SNOTTY-FACED HEAP OF PARROT DROPPINGS! [Note to mods-just echoing the Monty Python thing above, not an actual intended attempt at abuse…] ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2016, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-argument-becoming-impossible/741843/35 "2016-01-07T18:19:03Z")
> [@Helpful](#): > > Call me a rube if you want, but “to each his own” is a stagnant ideal. How could we ever get anywhere without imposing our ideas? If your ideas are awesome, they impose themselves by virtue of their awesomeness. If you have to apply force, and doing so _still_ doesnt work, maybe they’re not such awesome ideas after all. ---
**Author:** ![Chihuahua](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/dec6dc/32.png) [@Chihuahua](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chihuahua)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2016, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-argument-becoming-impossible/741843/36 "2016-01-07T19:48:10Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > If your ideas are awesome, they impose themselves by virtue of their awesomeness. If you have to apply force, and doing so _still_ doesnt work, maybe they’re not such awesome ideas after all. The vast number of 9/11 truthers, birthers, anti-vaxxers, and religious extremists in the world definitively disproves this hypothesis. ---
**Author:** ![Locrian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/locrian/32/14146_2.png) [@Locrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Locrian)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2016, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-argument-becoming-impossible/741843/37 "2016-01-07T20:19:58Z")
I’ve been swayed to believe that an argument on an Internet board is much better than a public argument. You can’t interrupt a post on a message board. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2016, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-argument-becoming-impossible/741843/38 "2016-01-07T20:28:01Z")
I kinda sorta know what the OP is talking about. Its becoming almost politically incorrect to have an argument on the merits. I blame the media for blurring the lines between facts and opinion. Now each side of the argument have a different set of facts to work from and consequently reach different conclusions. So a lot of people just “agree to disagree” when they are not disagreeing about their opinions, they are disagreeing about the facts. ---
**Author:** ![T.M](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ad7895/32.png) [@T.M](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/T.M)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2016, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-argument-becoming-impossible/741843/39 "2016-01-08T01:15:19Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Just so we’re all not he same page, total posts are now 3. Maybe he has been reading the board for some time and only just decided to jump in ---
**Author:** ![T.M](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ad7895/32.png) [@T.M](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/T.M)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2016, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-argument-becoming-impossible/741843/40 "2016-01-08T01:21:27Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I kinda sorta know what the OP is talking about. > > Its becoming almost politically incorrect to have an argument on the merits. I blame the media for blurring the lines between facts and opinion. Now each side of the argument have a different set of facts to work from and consequently reach different conclusions. > > So a lot of people just “agree to disagree” when they are not disagreeing about their opinions, they are disagreeing about the facts. One of the problems is people are to quick to demand proof, where is the evidence they shout, there seems to be a reluctance to run with a line of thought and see how it develops, if we always stick to the facts we never find anything new you just keep going over old ground [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-argument-becoming-impossible/741843.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-argument-becoming-impossible/741843.md?page=3)