# Is arranged fight to the death a crime? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [September 9, 2013, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-arranged-fight-to-the-death-a-crime/668449 "2013-09-09T22:26:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Zapp\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/ee59a6/32.png) [@Zapp\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zapp_S)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2013, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-arranged-fight-to-the-death-a-crime/668449/1 "2013-09-09T22:26:33Z")
If two people agree to fight to the death, and one kills another, would the survivor be charged, and with what? What sentence might he get? Let’s say it is beyond doubt that both participants were of sound mind and agreed to fight. Are there jurisdictions in the world that legally do not disallow such fights? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2013, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-arranged-fight-to-the-death-a-crime/668449/2 "2013-09-09T22:28:21Z")
Sounds like premeditated murder to me. The fact that the victim consented to the situation and might have been the perpetrator in other circumstances doesn’t negate the crime. ---
**Author:** ![Valgard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/7feea3/32.png) [@Valgard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valgard)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2013, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-arranged-fight-to-the-death-a-crime/668449/3 "2013-09-09T22:33:54Z")
IANAL and my criminal law knowledge is decades out of date, but when I took a class and we discussed homocide, the definition of 1st degree murder was something like “Intentionally taking the life of another human being with malice aforethought”. So arranging to duel to the death would appear to meet that definition - nothing about whether the victim agreed to it beforehand. I’ll hazard a guess that this would be illegal everywhere in the US. ---
**Author:** ![Capt\_Kirk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@Capt\_Kirk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt_Kirk)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2013, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-arranged-fight-to-the-death-a-crime/668449/4 "2013-09-09T22:36:03Z")
IANAL but pretty sure that it is Murder, quite possibly Pre-Meditated Murder which here in Texas is likely to get you “The Drip”. The Civil Authorities decided long ago that allowing people to fight to the death was a really bad idea, the relatives of the deceased tend to want revenge. A few years ago a guy wrote a very popular play, it has some lessons relevant to the OP [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romeo\_and\_Juliet](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romeo_and_Juliet) While not exactly the same, it does go to show that Bloodsports are a generally bad idea. **Capt** ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2013, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-arranged-fight-to-the-death-a-crime/668449/5 "2013-09-09T22:56:30Z")
See: [Duelling.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duel) Fell out of favor in the 19th century once handguns got reliable enough that you could consistently hit your target at 20 paces. ---
**Author:** ![drachillix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/48db29/32.png) [@drachillix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drachillix)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2013, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-arranged-fight-to-the-death-a-crime/668449/6 "2013-09-09T23:08:46Z")
> [@Ethilrist](#): > > See: [Duelling.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duel) Fell out of favor in the 19th century once handguns got reliable enough that you could consistently hit your target at 20 paces. So if we do 100 paces would that make it better? ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2013, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-arranged-fight-to-the-death-a-crime/668449/7 "2013-09-09T23:46:37Z")
Isn’t dueling specifically illegal, even though both parties are at least nominally consenting to be killed? (That is, aren’t there specific laws about dueling, over and above murder, manslaughter, and other catch-alls?) Arranged fisticuffs to the death would come under that same law, I think. ---
**Author:** ![Capt\_Kirk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@Capt\_Kirk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt_Kirk)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2013, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-arranged-fight-to-the-death-a-crime/668449/8 "2013-09-09T23:51:31Z")
> [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > Isn’t dueling specifically illegal, even though both parties are at least nominally consenting to be killed? (That is, aren’t there specific laws about dueling, over and above murder, manslaughter, and other catch-alls?) Arranged fisticuffs to the death would come under that same law, I think. At the bottom of the wiki link provided by **Ethilrist** , there is a breakdown of States and Others who specifically outlaw Dueling. The list is incomplete but I know know that it was, at least, Illegal in Texas. **Capt** ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2013, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-arranged-fight-to-the-death-a-crime/668449/9 "2013-09-10T00:25:45Z")
And the wiki also points out that, even in states which haven’t specifically outlawed duelling, it’s still murder & suchlike crimes. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2013, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-arranged-fight-to-the-death-a-crime/668449/10 "2013-09-10T00:53:27Z")
Besides you just killed the only witness who could confirm the two of you had agreed to a fight to the death. ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2013, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-arranged-fight-to-the-death-a-crime/668449/11 "2013-09-10T00:55:21Z")
Piffle. That’s what the seconds are for. ---
**Author:** ![picunurse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7bcc69/32.png) [@picunurse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/picunurse)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2013, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-arranged-fight-to-the-death-a-crime/668449/12 "2013-09-10T01:00:37Z")
What happened with the guy in Germany (I think) who ate another guy after obtaining the second guy’s consent? Was he charged with murder, or did he go to the looney bin? ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2013, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-arranged-fight-to-the-death-a-crime/668449/13 "2013-09-10T01:33:57Z")
> [@picunurse](#): > > What happened with the guy in Germany (I think) who ate another guy after obtaining the second guy’s consent? Was he charged with murder, or did he go to the looney bin? Convicted of murder - [Armin Meiwes - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armin_Meiwes) ---
**Author:** ![picunurse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7bcc69/32.png) [@picunurse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/picunurse)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2013, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-arranged-fight-to-the-death-a-crime/668449/14 "2013-09-10T01:56:10Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > Convicted of murder - [Armin Meiwes - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armin_Meiwes) Well, there ya go. ---
**Author:** ![j\_sum1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8baadc/32.png) [@j\_sum1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j_sum1)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2013, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-arranged-fight-to-the-death-a-crime/668449/15 "2013-09-10T03:35:41Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > Convicted of murder - [Armin Meiwes - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armin_Meiwes) I hope I am not alone in finding this saga one of the creepiest and bizarre true stories that I have ever heard. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2013, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-arranged-fight-to-the-death-a-crime/668449/16 "2013-09-10T05:00:31Z")
> [@j\_sum1](#): > > I hope I am not alone in finding this saga one of the creepiest and bizarre true stories that I have ever heard. We had (maybe still have) a doper who had been a coworker of the victim. Needless to say, he won the thread where he mentioned it. ---
**Author:** ![Ranger\_Jeff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranger_jeff/32/2065_2.png) [@Ranger\_Jeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranger_Jeff)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2013, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-arranged-fight-to-the-death-a-crime/668449/17 "2013-09-10T05:52:46Z")
Best case, some sort of voluntary manslaughter. Worse case, premeditated murder. I guess the defense would try self-defense. ---
**Author:** ![ekedolphin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ekedolphin/32/10003_2.png) [@ekedolphin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ekedolphin)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2013, 6:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-arranged-fight-to-the-death-a-crime/668449/18 "2013-09-10T06:47:15Z")
Incidentally, even in 18th/19th century duels, it was usually part of “the code” that you’d both deliberately miss. Dueling wasn’t really about taking life, it was about regaining honor. In the famous Alexander Hamilton/Aaron Burr fight, Hamilton deliberately wasted his shot. Burr is reputed to have said, “Contemptible, if true.” ---
**Author:** ![Darth\_Nader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Darth\_Nader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Nader)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2013, 7:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-arranged-fight-to-the-death-a-crime/668449/19 "2013-09-10T07:01:17Z")
Assisted suicide. ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2013, 7:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-arranged-fight-to-the-death-a-crime/668449/20 "2013-09-10T07:36:46Z")
> [@ekedolphin](#): > > Incidentally, even in 18th/19th century duels, it was usually part of “the code” that you’d both deliberately miss. Dueling wasn’t really about taking life, it was about regaining honor. > > In the famous Alexander Hamilton/Aaron Burr fight, Hamilton deliberately wasted his shot. Burr is reputed to have said, “Contemptible, if true.” My understanding is sword duels were often fought to “first blood” - a white sheet was lain upon the ground and the duelliest fought until someone’s blood fell on the sheet, at which point the duel was over, honour satisfied, and aggrievances rectified. Even if the blood was from a mere scratch, flesh-wound or even a bleeding nose. Otherwise, they were fought until submission - actual fights to the death were very rare as I understand it. But yes, I believe deloping (deliberately missing) when duelling with handguns had become The Done Thing by the 19th Century, for obvious reasons. Also, it was considered a terribly caddish thing to have rifling - even “scratch rifling” - in the barrels of one’s duelling pistols, too (on account of how that would make the guns somewhat accurate enough to reliably kill or maim). [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-arranged-fight-to-the-death-a-crime/668449.md?page=2)