# Is Atheism a "religion"? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 10, 2000, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-atheism-a-religion/17743 "2000-03-10T14:55:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![hardcore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5a626/32.png) [@hardcore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hardcore)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2000, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-atheism-a-religion/17743/41 "2000-03-11T00:56:00Z")
pashley: > [@](#): > > No, I asked you first. Your answer is too ambiguous. Some people have miraculous health cures; some think statues weeping tears or blood are. You have no criteria? No, I asked you _first??_ Please tell me I am not back in 2nd grade (best 3 years of my life) 😉 No doubt there are those whose criteria is less stringent than mine. The exact details of my requirements are trivial, because any rational person has a set of conditions that would classify an entity as a god, and an omnipotent being would have no trouble meeting any restrictions. However, I’m not holding my breath while waiting for applicants. > [@](#): > > My criteria for not believing will be dying. If I am dead, and there is no God, I won’t know about it anyway. Just as I suspected, no evidence will disprove your theory that God exists. As long as you are alive, you will continue to believe in God despite any conflicting data. Therefore, your theory is non-falsifiable and not subject to rational discourse. ---
**Author:** ![Gilligan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Gilligan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gilligan)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2000, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-atheism-a-religion/17743/42 "2000-03-11T01:49:00Z")
I haven’t read every religious thread, and almost never post in them, but Cooper, this is the first time I’ve seen here the logical positivist version of athiesm. Good work. Sake’s post reminded of something from _5000 BC and other Philosophical Fantasies_, by Raymond Smullyan. > [@](#): > > If there really is a God, could that fact not merely be believed, but actually known? Perhaps it could, by, say, some mystical insight. On the other hand, if there isn’t a God, could that fact be known? Certainly not by any scientific means! Could it then be known by some mystical means? If so, it would be a rather fascinating type of mysticism that could percieve the non-existence rather than the existence of something! ---
**Author:** ![David\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/51bf81/32.png) [@David\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_B)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2000, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-atheism-a-religion/17743/43 "2000-03-11T04:31:00Z")
Pashley asked: > [@](#): > > Have you ever asked yourselves what evidence you would need to change your mind? Care to share that? No, we’ve _never_ thought of that. Not at all. Not even in several threads on this very message board. :rolleyes: In a follow-up message, you mention several “miracles” that, well, aren’t. Basically, I’d need a miracle that could not be faked. Something like the rising of the dead (that’s one I’ve used before around here). Unfortunately, I see that you’ve already decided that you are right and nothing short of death will convince you otherwise (and even that won’t, 'cus, well, you’ll be dead). It must be nice to be so certain while holding no evidence. * * * Ignorance is Bliss. Reality is Better. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2000, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-atheism-a-religion/17743/44 "2000-03-11T05:59:00Z")
Religion requires a system of rituals and practices that binds the believers together with their belief. Atheism can be a religion if several were to meet regularly, write a text, perform some ritual. I say, Lets get started! ---
**Author:** ![hardcore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5a626/32.png) [@hardcore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hardcore)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2000, 7:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-atheism-a-religion/17743/45 "2000-03-11T07:17:00Z")
David: > [@](#): > > I’d need a miracle that could not be faked. Something like the rising of the dead I would have to be careful even with this one. Certainly modern medicine “raises the dead” in a fashion that would have been considered a miracle just a few short centuries ago. Who knows what science will enable in the future? ---
**Author:** ![waterj2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/858c86/32.png) [@waterj2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/waterj2)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2000, 7:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-atheism-a-religion/17743/46 "2000-03-11T07:38:00Z")
Who was it that said that “any technology, significantly advanced will be indistinguishable (sp?) from magic”? As for me, I’m thinking that it would pretty much require God to smite me and send me to hell, at which point it’s probably a bit too late to do much good. A friend of mine once convinced me to go to church with him a couple times. So for a while I defined my “religion” as “non-practicing atheist”, but that sort of thing hasn’t happened for a while so I’m back to “practicing” my “religion”. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2000, 8:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-atheism-a-religion/17743/47 "2000-03-11T08:01:00Z")
All I know about God is that he obviously doesn’t like me. ---
**Author:** ![David\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/51bf81/32.png) [@David\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_B)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2000, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-atheism-a-religion/17743/48 "2000-03-11T14:08:00Z")
Hardcore said: > [@](#): > > I would have to be careful even with this one. Certainly modern medicine “raises the dead” in a fashion that would have been considered a miracle just a few short centuries ago. Who knows what science will enable in the future? Ok, ok, I needed to be more specific. The rising of not just _one_ dead, but all of 'em, as predicted by various religions. And obviously not through technology (so if it happened today, I would consider it a miracle – if it happened after a long period of research, I wouldn’t). Jeez, ya gotta be _so_ specific around here! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![pashley](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e0b2c6/32.png) [@pashley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pashley)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2000, 6:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-atheism-a-religion/17743/49 "2000-03-12T06:29:00Z")
David B: > [@](#): > > “Unfortunately, I see that you’ve already decided that you are right and nothing short of death will convince you otherwise (and even that won’t, 'cus, well, you’ll be dead). It must be nice to be so certain while holding no evidence.” Hold on there, boy. I was on the Agnostic (if not Atheist) side of the fence for many years…I’ve just recently gotten back on board the Catholic wagon. Do I still have doubts about HIS existence? Yes. As far as ‘evidence’ goes, well, do we have evidence of thought? Of love? We may see products of these, but not the actual process, yet we know they exist (No, EKGs don’t count, they should brain activity, not what the thoughts are). Just try to avail yourself to the possiblity that there maybe things out there we don’t yet sense. * * * Patrick Ashley ‘The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.’ -Edmund Burke ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2000, 6:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-atheism-a-religion/17743/50 "2000-03-12T06:50:00Z")
At best, that puts your religious beliefs in the “maybe” catagory, along with UFO’s and Nessie. To paraphrase a great man, “Incredible claims require incredible proof.” To postulate a being that is all knowing, all seeing, all powerful, and is the creator of everything would require a hell of a lot of proof. To deny the existance of such a fantastic creature because no proof at all has been brought forth should be a foregone conclusion. ---
**Author:** ![David\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/51bf81/32.png) [@David\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_B)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2000, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-atheism-a-religion/17743/51 "2000-03-11T20:17:00Z")
Pashley said: > [@](#): > > Hold on there, boy. Ok, child. > [@](#): > > I was on the Agnostic (if not Atheist) side of the fence for many years…I’ve just recently gotten back on board the Catholic wagon. Do I still have doubts about HIS existence? Yes. Funny, that’s not what you indicated earlier. You showed that you are pretty well convinced and nothing could change your mind. I also find it odd that somebody would claim to be an agnostic/atheist and also be a creationist. For that matter, Catholics accept evolution as well. Hmmmm. > [@](#): > > As far as ‘evidence’ goes, well, do we have evidence of thought? Of love? We may see products of these, but not the actual process, yet we know they exist (No, EKGs don’t count, they should brain activity, not what the thoughts are). Funny how you get to determine what counts and what doesn’t. Yes, we have evidence of thought and love. In fact, I’m having a thought about you right now, and it sure doesn’t involve love. > [@](#): > > Just try to avail yourself to the possiblity that there maybe things out there we don’t yet sense. What makes you “think” that I don’t accept that possibility? But just because I accept that it’s possible doesn’t mean I’m going to assume that it’s true. There may be an undetectable one-eyed, one-horned, flying, purple people eater living inside of Pluto, but that doesn’t mean I’m going to assume there is or change my life because of it. ---
**Author:** ![pashley](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e0b2c6/32.png) [@pashley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pashley)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2000, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-atheism-a-religion/17743/52 "2000-03-11T21:55:00Z")
David B, the “Moderator” > [@](#): > > "Funny how you get to determine what counts and what doesn’t. Yes, we have evidence of thought and love. In fact, I’m having a thought about you right now, and it sure doesn’t involve love. " You have got to be the most self-assured, egotistical little dick “moderator” I’ve ever seen. Your attitude reallys stinks, pal. I’VE got a problem with not accepting alternate views? Ask Esprix about that! * * * Patrick Ashley ‘The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.’ -Edmund Burke ---
**Author:** ![David\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/51bf81/32.png) [@David\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_B)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2000, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-atheism-a-religion/17743/53 "2000-03-11T21:58:00Z")
[Moderator Hat: ON] As I just had to tell you in another thread, I’m telling you again now – insults don’t belong here. Either take it to the Pit or just drop it altogether. Got it? * * * David B, SDMB Great Debates Moderator [Moderator Hat: OFF] ---
**Author:** ![David\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/51bf81/32.png) [@David\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_B)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2000, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-atheism-a-religion/17743/54 "2000-03-11T22:00:00Z")
And, once again now that the hat is off, I notice that you completely failed to address the points at hand. Funny, that. ---
**Author:** ![pashley](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e0b2c6/32.png) [@pashley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pashley)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2000, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-atheism-a-religion/17743/55 "2000-03-11T22:05:00Z")
David B: > [@](#): > > “And, once again now that the hat is off, I notice that you completely failed to address the points…” I don’t want to talk to you Dave. I can argue all day long and hold my ground, but when you hurl the insults against me personally, and my religion, forget it, you’re not worth it. Go live your selfish life. * * * Patrick Ashley ‘The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.’ -Edmund Burke ---
**Author:** ![David\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/51bf81/32.png) [@David\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_B)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2000, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-atheism-a-religion/17743/56 "2000-03-11T22:09:00Z")
I don’t know what kind of mirror-universe you’re living in, but the only person around here who has been hurling insults is _you_. But nice try at continuing to avoid the tough questions that you apparently don’t want to answer. Do you really think the folks around here are stupid enough to fall for it? ---
**Author:** ![pashley](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e0b2c6/32.png) [@pashley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pashley)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2000, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-atheism-a-religion/17743/57 "2000-03-11T22:15:00Z")
David B: > [@](#): > > But nice try at continuing to avoid the tough questions that you apparently don’t want to answer. Do you really think the folks around here are stupid enough to fall for it? I have no problems addressing questions, Dave. What I have a problem with is being labelled “ignorant” because I express a view that may contain a HINT of religion. I don’t need or deserve that. * * * Patrick Ashley ‘The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.’ -Edmund Burke ---
**Author:** ![David\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/51bf81/32.png) [@David\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_B)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2000, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-atheism-a-religion/17743/58 "2000-03-11T22:31:00Z")
Pashley said: > [@](#): > > I have no problems addressing questions, Dave. Hmmm. Could’ve fooled me. > [@](#): > > What I have a problem with is being labelled “ignorant” because I express a view that may contain a HINT of religion. I don’t need or deserve that. And you haven’t gotten it. Some of the stuff you’ve been propagating here _is_ ignorance, and I’ve already explained why. I don’t care whether you’re propagating it because of your religion, race, color, creed, hair style, toenail length, or taste in clothing. The point is that you have promoted anti-science, anti-logic, and anti-rationality here, and you’ve been called on it. And, to top it off, you have lately refused to deal with the issues at hand. ---
**Author:** ![pashley](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e0b2c6/32.png) [@pashley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pashley)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2000, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-atheism-a-religion/17743/59 "2000-03-11T23:20:00Z")
> [@](#): > > And you haven’t gotten it. Some of the stuff you’ve been propagating here is ignorance, and I’ve already explained why. I don’t care whether you’re propagating it because of your religion, race, color, creed, hair style, toenail length, or taste in clothing. The point is that you have promoted anti-science, anti-logic, and anti-rationality here, and you’ve been called on it. And, to top it off, you have lately refused to deal with the issues at hand. Yes, I have been hung to dry for daring to say anything about religion or God. Very evident. And like I said before, I can argue with you rationally, and logically, all day long, but if i induce you to believe in something that can’t be measured, you fly off the handle. You might want to try to think outside the box once in awhile. * * * Patrick Ashley ‘The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.’ -Edmund Burke ---
**Author:** ![Cooper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/50afbb/32.png) [@Cooper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cooper)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2000, 8:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-atheism-a-religion/17743/60 "2000-03-12T08:00:00Z")
Ok, so ‘think outside the box’ means ‘postulate statements that are untestable’ ? Cause there ain’t much point in doing that. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-atheism-a-religion/17743.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-atheism-a-religion/17743.md?page=4)