[QUOTE=Leaffan]
There are frequent threads here with atheists (myself included) posing very level positions on why organized religion is allegedly a sham.
[/QUOTE]
My take on it is ‘organized religion’ as you state it is not what God wants, it is worship in vain. God wants us in a personal relationship with Him. ‘Dogma’ has little if anything to do with God, and just serves to discourage people, which IMHO drives them to atheism.
Biblically during the end times, which many people think we are at, people will be pushed to make a decision to God or away, not able to stay in the middle ground. So it does seem like atheism should be on the rise, or at least the people professing it will be bolder about it.
[QUOTE=the raindog]
And, who, pray tell, is the master you describe?
[/QUOTE]
For you, you. The imaginary friend you label ‘God’ and insist that others believe in and regard as the source of all morality. But which is nothing more than a fantasy of yours, so when you tell people they should do what “God” wants, you are telling them to do what YOU want.
[QUOTE=the raindog]
And, who, pray tell, is the master you describe?
[/QUOTE]
Exactly my point. You’re advocating following someone that you don’t even know who is if he even exists, which all evidence says he/she/them doesn’t. The Bible could just as easily be the work of Satan as God for everything you know. Certainly we’ve had to toss at least the majority of all its rules before we were able to become the peaceful (frowned upon by the Bible so long as there are still heathen) and prosperous (also forbidden by the Bible) society that we are today.
[QUOTE=Der Trihs]
For you, you. The imaginary friend you label ‘God’ and insist that others believe in and regard as the source of all morality. But which is nothing more than a fantasy of yours, so when you tell people they should do what “God” wants, you are telling them to do what YOU want.
[/QUOTE]
Well that only makes sence is the person’s idea of God is self created and not given to them by another source.
It could be their parents idea of God, a ministers or one they’ve made up, but people rarely create God in their own image.
Mr Hubbard, or Jospeh Smith did maybe but the Average person’s God is not them.
[QUOTE=Sage Rat]
Exactly my point. You’re advocating following someone that you don’t even know who is if he even exists, which all evidence says he/she/them doesn’t. The Bible could just as easily be the work of Satan as God for everything you know. Certainly we’ve had to toss at least the majority of all its rules before we were able to become the peaceful (forbidden by the Bible) and prosperous (also forbidden by the Bible) society that we are today.
[/QUOTE]
You didn’t answer the question! **Bolding mine.
**
Who is “someone”?
[QUOTE=DT]
so when you tell people they should do what “God” wants, you are telling them to do what YOU want.
[/QUOTE]
Sometimes this is true, but many times God will request we do things that we don’t want. But God does speak to the individual and God doesn’t need to tell us through anyone in such a matter, demons and the one who masquerades as a angel of light OTOH are another case.
[QUOTE=Leaffan]
There are frequent threads here with atheists (myself included) posing very level positions on why organized religion is allegedly a sham.
I am absolutely NOT trying to spark a debate among the believers versus the non-believers; I’m simply curious as to whether or not Atheism is gaining grounds on organized religion.
I believe it is. I have no evidence. Do you
[/quote] This Economist article brings something to bear on the question.
More of interest if you follow the links. Worldwide at least atheism, heck just secularism (not the same thing) is not gaining, and fundamentalism is.
To clarify my point, to the extent that atheism is advancing (and it may not be, as Larry Borgia implies) it is not, in my view, because it is a more compelling paradigm vis a vis religion.
Rather, atheism is the natural result of humanism run amok, it is secular humanism.
It’s simply bowing to a different master, bowing to self.
ETA: edited out language that looked too snarky upon review.
[/QUOTE]
I think in many if not most cases atheism is simply that individual being honest with themselves about what they do and don’t believe. Personal honesty is IMO an essential part of human growth. It’s part of the process of sifting the truth from doctrine and tradition. I think that’s also why we see more people moving toward less dogmatic forms of personal spirituality rather than organized religion.
Even those in organized religion must decide what they believe and what they don’t believe, and then take personal responsibility for how those beliefs affect the self and others. Their beliefs don’t automatically come from some divine source but from their own hearts and minds as they decide what they value and search for truth and meaning.
Making statements about trying to serve God doesn’t change what’s going on within. Ultimately each person must follow what it is they truly value consciously and subconsciously.
Per the OP, I tend to think atheism is slowly on the rise as dogmatic religion is rejected. It may be that we are simply hearing more about it, but as it becomes more open and understood, I think more people will be comfortable with the label.
For the eleventy millionth time, it is a-theism, not athe-ism. The definition is the absence of theism of any sort. It doesn’t have it’s own set of morals, standards, rules or what have you. It isn’t a belief in SCIENCE, Secular Humanism, Communism, or any other “ism”-it is only a rejection of the belief in any deity or deities.
[QUOTE=Der Trihs]
As for whether or not there are more atheists, I doubt that it’s an answerable question, because so many people will lie about it, both ways.
[/QUOTE]
Are you suggestion that there are a large number of people who claim to be atheists but are in fact religious? Surely I have misunderstood.
[QUOTE=Czarcasm]
For the eleventy millionth time, it is a-theism, not athe-ism. The definition is the absence of theism of any sort.
[/QUOTE]
I think you’re overstating your case greatly. The term “atheism” derives from “(a-theos)-ism,” not “a-(theism).” Historically, it meant the belief that there is no God, not merely the lack of theism. (The latter can just as easily be described as “non-theism,” so there is really no need to co-opt a pre-existing term.)
I’ll grant that many people choose to use term more loosely; however, I have yet to find any reputable dictionary or encyclopedia of philosophy which declares that atheism is defined as “absence of theism.” Quite the contrary; the Merriam Webster dictionary online says:
Similarly, The Encyclopedia of Philosophy declares that atheism, in its most common definition, refers to the active belief that there is no God – not merely a refusal to affirm his existence.
Once again, I agree that some people choose to use the word differently. I’m not here to argue about whether we should adopt a prescriptive or descriptive approach to philology. However, if somebody declares that atheism is defined as “a-theism” or “being without theism,” that’s simply inaccurate. At best, it’s a gross oversimplification, and at worst, it’s simply wrong.
[QUOTE=kanicbird]
Sometimes this is true, but many times God will request we do things that we don’t want.
[/QUOTE]
Does your want to follow God override those wants of you not wanting to do something?
[QUOTE=JThunder]
I think you’re overstating your case greatly. The term “atheism” derives from “(a-theos)-ism,” not “a-(theism).” Historically, it meant the belief that there is no God, not merely the lack of theism.
[/QUOTE]
Actually, no; the cites you give say that atheism is the belief in no gods, not God particularly.
[QUOTE=kanicbird]
Sometimes this is true, but many times God will request we do things that we don’t want. But God does speak to the individual and God doesn’t need to tell us through anyone in such a matter, demons and the one who masquerades as a angel of light OTOH are another case.
[/QUOTE]
I hear this a lot and I wonder how true this is, because I am of the opinion that people tend to stick with the religion that matches their own viewpoints. Tell me-what are some of the things that you personally want to do that your god has forbidden you to do?
[QUOTE=Revenant Threshold]
Actually, no; the cites you give say that atheism is the belief in no gods, not God particularly.
[/QUOTE]
Also, that would be “belief”, as in accepting that something is probably true or false. Not “Belief”, as in a theism. If I believe that there isn’t enough evidence put forward that yetis exist, I am not a member of a Belief System that revolves around the non-existence of yetis.
[QUOTE=Czarcasm]
I hear this a lot and I wonder how true this is, because I am of the opinion that people tend to stick with the religion that matches their own viewpoints. Tell me-what are some of the things that you personally want to do that your god has forbidden you to do?
[/QUOTE]
People stick with the interpretation of their religion which matches their viewpoints (observation.) The religion itself is usually decided by a person’s parents (cite upon request.)
I’ve been an atheist all my life, but until a few years ago, I tended not to let casual acquaintances or co-workers know it. I tended to answer non-committally when asked what my religion was – “Um, I’m not really anything”.
My reasons for becoming more outspoken include:
Reaction to the increased prominence of the religious right. America has always been a religious population. But the stigmatization of non-believers increased during cold war, when we had to declare ourselves as different as possible from the Godless communists by doing things like amending the pledge of allegiance. (Franklin Pierce, the 14th president, refused to be sworn into office, opting for a secular affirmation – can you imagine any president doing that today?) The religious right’s influence accelerated in the last few decades, and may have peaked recently in the wake of episodes like the Terri Schiavo case.
My opinion that many atheists were, like me, afraid to let their beliefs be known, because many Americans hold prejudicedly negative views of atheists (I once had a religious co-worker seriously ask me, when I told him I was an atheist, whether I worshipped Satan). This is synergistic with:
The fact that if reasonable atheists don’t make their beliefs known, it will give continued support to the myth that all atheists are rabid, foaming-at-the-mouth O’Hair clones.
So I’m not sure that the number of atheists is growing. But I think there have always been more of us here than polls claim, and we’re speaking up more.
[QUOTE=Sage Rat]
People stick with the interpretation of their religion which matches their viewpoints (observation.) The religion itself is usually decided by a person’s parents (cite upon request.)
[/QUOTE]
Correction accepted. Thank you.