# Is atheism the way to go? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 23, 2001, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-atheism-the-way-to-go/89118 "2001-10-23T16:48:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Chubbs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/47e85d/32.png) [@Chubbs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chubbs)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2001, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-atheism-the-way-to-go/89118/1 "2001-10-23T16:48:16Z")
Wouldn’t this stop 90% of the wars today? If a lot of people thinks it is ok to kill in the name of God. Then wouldn’t no God be better? ---
**Author:** ![Earthworm\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f07891/32.png) [@Earthworm\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Earthworm_Jim)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2001, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-atheism-the-way-to-go/89118/2 "2001-10-23T16:57:48Z")
I read you’re post as claiming 90% of todays wars are based in religion. As such, I ask: Cite, please? I don’t see much evidence supporting the idea that most people believe killing in the name of God is good and/or necessary. Of the six billion (6,000,000,000) people on earth now, how many are engaged in wars at all, let alone religious wars? ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2001, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-atheism-the-way-to-go/89118/3 "2001-10-23T17:29:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Chubbs \* > \*\*Wouldn’t this stop 90% of the wars today? If a lot of people thinks it is ok to kill in the name of God. Then wouldn’t no God be better? \*\* The greatest massacres in the world were performed by _atheistic_ regimes – Lenin, Stalin, Chiang Kai Shek, and Pol Pot, to name a few. Don’t believe me? Check the _Guiness Book of World Records_. Also check the following link: [http://www.str.org/free/commentaries/apologetics/comparisons/realmurd.htm](http://www.str.org/free/commentaries/apologetics/comparisons/realmurd.htm) ---
**Author:** ![armedmonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@armedmonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/armedmonkey)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2001, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-atheism-the-way-to-go/89118/4 "2001-10-23T17:41:16Z")
A brief list of the major wars fought in this century: [ul]The Gulf War The USSR/ Afghan War Vietnam Korea WW II WW I[/ul] **Chubbs** , first question: could you be so kind as to explain how these were caused by _religous_ differences rather than nation states and/or political groups struggling for territory and/or resources? second question: List five wars fought in this century based solely on religous differences, as opposed to ethnicity, territory, or political ideology. Thank you. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2001, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-atheism-the-way-to-go/89118/5 "2001-10-23T17:50:57Z")
As to the question raised, I think I would say this: - If you do not believe in God/s, athiesm is the way to do. - If you do, it’s not. Beeblebrox, to your list I would include wars such as the Iran-Iraq War, the Greek civil war, the Spanish civil war, the Winter War, both Russo-Japanese wars, and the Yugoslav civil wars, all of which were fought over land and power. ---
**Author:** ![sghoul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3ec8ea/32.png) [@sghoul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sghoul)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2001, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-atheism-the-way-to-go/89118/6 "2001-10-23T17:54:35Z")
Also, I would be willing to bet, that many of the wars fought because of religion, weren’t REALLY about that religion. It was just a way for leaders to sucker people into doing what they want. Most of the major religions are against wars. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2001, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-atheism-the-way-to-go/89118/7 "2001-10-23T19:10:50Z")
An all-atheist society would have a harder time coming up with _excuses_ to go to war, but it would not eliminate most wars. **That** would require the human race to evolve into something less influenced by wildly emotional impulses. ---
**Author:** ![obidiah](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ed655f/32.png) [@obidiah](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/obidiah)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2001, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-atheism-the-way-to-go/89118/8 "2001-10-23T19:32:59Z")
Hmmm…I’m wondering if there is difference between the cause of a war and the motivation to fight that war. If it takes religion to motivate the soldiers in the field to kill the enemy, could it not be said that religion is the motivator of the war, the reason the war exists? If only a few are privy to the ‘real’ cause (such as land or power) then the ‘real’ reason people continue to fight is over differences in religion. For example: What was the ‘real’ motivation’ of the German army in WW2? Certainly a large enough number of officers and soldiers believed the the Jews and the Gypsies were destroying the Arian race and genocide was the cure for this. There are certainly huge religious overtones there. I’m not claiming that is the ‘real’ cause of the rise of the Third Reich, but enough people supported it to make it a religious issue. I do think religion plays a major role in warfare, as do many factors. You can’t attribute Religion as the single factor…there never is a single factor. Nothing on a scale as large as a war is that black and white. Another example is our new War on Terrorism. Certainly large scale religious overtones exist and certainly this is part of the reason we are in this war. If it was a non-issue would so many Arab/Muslim Americans be attacked everyday? Again, I’m not stating that EVERY attack is based on religion, but some certainly are. Finally, even if most of the major religions claim to be against wars the track record is so stellar. Examples: Spanish Inquisition, Crusades, Salem Witch Trials and the Ku Klux Klan. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2001, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-atheism-the-way-to-go/89118/9 "2001-10-23T19:41:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by obidiah \* > \*\*For example: What was the ‘real’ motivation’ of the German army in WW2? Certainly a large enough number of officers and soldiers believed the the Jews and the Gypsies were destroying the Arian race and genocide was the cure for this. There are certainly huge religious overtones there. \*\* I would say that that’s compeltely wrong. The army’s motivation was that they were ordered to fight; most German soldiers had, at most, a casual hostility towards Jews or didn’t even really care at all. The “what we do to motivate our soldiers” line is bull; almost all soldiers are motivated primarily by a sense of adventure, aggression, peer pressure, duty, and sheer national chauvinism. The anti-Jewish hysteria was, if you study the Nazis, _ethnic_ in origin, not religious. They didn’t hate the Jews for theological reasons, they hated them because they had blinkered ideas about race and ancestry. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2001, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-atheism-the-way-to-go/89118/10 "2001-10-23T19:47:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by obidiah \* > \*\* > Finally, even if most of the major religions claim to be against wars the track record is so stellar. Examples: Spanish Inquisition, Crusades, Salem Witch Trials and the Ku Klux Klan. \*\* Yeah, but again, the Spanish Inquisition also was motivated by the seizure of property of wealthy Morranos, and the fear of the protestants, not because of their religious beliefs, but because politically they stressed decentralization and an end to empire. The Crusades were largely fought because European knights wanted money and land, and also control over trade and pilgrimage routes. The Salem Witch Trials happened in an atmosphere of economic recession as Salem Village was being economically and politically usurped by the neighboring township of Salem. The Klan was formed by and drew most of its membership from people who felt economically threatened and morally outraged by increased civil rights for blacks. All of these events had religious elements, and religion was a motivator for some people, but it’s likely that, even if religion was absent, these things, or something like them, would have occured. ---
**Author:** ![obidiah](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ed655f/32.png) [@obidiah](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/obidiah)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2001, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-atheism-the-way-to-go/89118/11 "2001-10-23T20:09:23Z")
RickJay: I was wondering how many soldiers in the German Army during WW2 you personally knew? My family is from Germany and both sides of my family fought in that war (20 that have met and talked to). I don’t know what you have read or studied about the Nazi’s but from my experience from talking with these men directly there was no distinction made between ETHNIC and RELIGIOUS issues made by the commanders. I would agree with your assertation as to why soldiers join the Army (a sense of adventure, aggression, peer pressure, duty, and sheer national chauvinism) but not with how they are motivated while fighting a war. Have you been in the military? I was and I can assure you that the factors you mentioned play a huge role in motivation, as does religion. It takes more than a sense of adventure for most men to kill each other. Capt. Amazing: Your point and my point are the same I think. All I am trying to point out is that religion does play a role in this, as do the factors you mention. I think a lot of folks are really touchy about nasaying religion right now. I can understand that, but it is unfair to ignore the power this force has on people. It is also likely that if ANY one of the factors you mentioned were absent in the events I listed they, or something like them, could have still occured. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Ryan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7feea3/32.png) [@The\_Ryan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Ryan)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2001, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-atheism-the-way-to-go/89118/12 "2001-10-23T20:18:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by JThunder \* > The greatest massacres in the world were performed by _atheistic_ regimes – Lenin, Stalin, Chiang Kai Shek, and Pol Pot, to name a few. That’s a rather strange definition of “atheistic” you’ve got there. ---
**Author:** ![Chubbs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/47e85d/32.png) [@Chubbs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chubbs)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2001, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-atheism-the-way-to-go/89118/13 "2001-10-23T20:26:11Z")
All the wars fought had something to do with religion. Why did the terrorist hit the WTC? I do believe it has to do with religion. Like WW II correct me if I’m wrong but the German’s didn’t care for Jews. What is the deal with Palestine and Israel? I know it’s for land, but not any kind of land it is for “Holy Land”. So the only cure is to believe in no God and keep your hands to yourself. Everyone get some land build a house make a family and when you die nothing happens. No Heaven or Hell you just cease to exist. There you go World Peace. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2001, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-atheism-the-way-to-go/89118/14 "2001-10-23T20:33:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by obidiah \* > \*\*Finally, even if most of the major religions claim to be against wars the track record is so stellar. Examples: Spanish Inquisition, Crusades, Salem Witch Trials and the Ku Klux Klan. \*\* Actually the track record is better than it appears. These 4 examples were seleceted from the last 1000 years of history over the entire world. Given many different religions in many different countries over many, many years, only four wars isn’t bad. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2001, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-atheism-the-way-to-go/89118/15 "2001-10-23T20:41:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Chubbs \* > \*\*Like WW II correct me if I’m wrong but the German’s didn’t care for Jews. \*\* Well, no, the Germans “didn’t care for Jews”, but they didn’t like anybody they classified as a Jew, whether he or she was religious or not. It wasn’t a religious anti-semetism…the hatred was of “The Jewish Race”…of Jews as an ethnic group. Also, WWII didn’t begin because of German actions against Jews, but because Germany invaded Poland, which was and is majority Catholic, religiously, as was and is Southern Germany. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2001, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-atheism-the-way-to-go/89118/16 "2001-10-23T20:45:12Z")
Depends where you want to end up. [sub]Oh come now, _somebody_ had to say it[/sub] ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2001, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-atheism-the-way-to-go/89118/17 "2001-10-23T20:46:41Z")
**Chubbs** , I think your view of human nature is slightly naive. The situations in Palestine and Northern Ireland are pretty much Tribal in nature, not religious. Look at all in the infighting among the Kurds, or the Afghanis, all of whom have the same religion. > [@](#): > > All the wars fought had something to do with religion. They also all had something to do with property, land, and power. Which, if any, is more important? Which are merely justifications? ---
**Author:** ![obidiah](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ed655f/32.png) [@obidiah](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/obidiah)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2001, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-atheism-the-way-to-go/89118/18 "2001-10-23T20:55:59Z")
december: C’mon…you know these are examples…there isn’t enough space in the forums to list them all. Well, there is, but you know what I mean. I am saying that the majority, if not ALL wars have some basis in religion along with many other factors. I don’t know why so many are hesitant to admit that. Religion is a powerful tool and can be used for a variety of reasons, some noble, some not so noble. History, both recent and ancient, has taught us that. It all goes along with being human…we are dogmatic and gregarious as the dickens. Some people need religion to justify their existance and explain the fear of the unknown, and that is a big fear. Others know how to expliot it, be it a corrupt televangelist or a leader of an Army. We expliot it in Amaerica and we know we do. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2001, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-atheism-the-way-to-go/89118/19 "2001-10-23T21:33:41Z")
> [@](#): > > I am saying that the majority, if not ALL wars have some basis in religion along with many other factors. I don’t know why so many are hesitant to admit that. Because it does not appear to be true and because you have provided no evidence to support the idea that it is true. That the majority of cultures in the world include religion hardly makes religion a major motivation for war. From the sixteenth through the early eighteenth centuries, Europe was, indeed, subject to numerous “religious” wars. However, Catholics and Protestants frequently fought for the “other” side when it matched their _political_ interest to do so. There have been several religious wars throughout history, but they do not come close to being a majority of the wars fought. Trying to make WWII a religious war is stretching the definition past the breaking point. Killing Jews developed into a key personal interest of Hitler, but his war against the entire continent of Europe had nothing to do with finding Jews to kill and everything to do with conquest of land. Norway and Denmark had few Jews (and were among Hitler’s “racially pure” Nordics), but he was quite happy to wage war on them. ---
**Author:** ![armedmonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@armedmonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/armedmonkey)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2001, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-atheism-the-way-to-go/89118/20 "2001-10-23T21:41:51Z")
**Obediah** , I don’t think anyone is shying away from the fact that religon pops up in wars. But it pops up in all facets of a culture including politics, commerce, philosophy, music, art, food, literature, fashion, etc. In turn, all of these things pop up in war as well. To say, as the O.P. did, that abolishing religon will abolish war is just plain simple minded. Religon isn’t even close to the chief factor in twentieth century wars. Hitler didn’t invade Poland over differences in Protestantism. The U.S. didn’t occupy Vietnam because of Buddhism. Iraq didn’t invade Kuwait over Suni Islam. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Chubbs \* > \*\*\So the only cure is to believe in no God and keep your hands to yourself. Everyone get some land build a house make a family and when you die nothing happens. No Heaven or Hell you just cease to exist. There you go World Peace. \*\* Apologies Chubbs, but I think you’ve been listening to John Lennon’s _Imagine_ a bit too much. If we have no god, then we have no differences, so we have nothing to fight about right? However, if we have the _same_ god we have nothing to fight about either. So why don’t we all convert to Zorastrianism to insure world peace? That should work equally well. Alas, but it wouldn’t go far enough. Whenever there is a possibility of an “us” and a “them” there is a possibility of war. Thus we must get rid of all differences, not only in faith, but also in ideology, ethnicity, nationality, class, etc. Doubleplus ungood. And you have yet to offer any actual facts in support of this “idea”. - **Beeblebrox** * * * It wasn’t his job to worry about that, though. It was his job to do his job, which was to do his job. If that led to a certain narrowness of vision and circularity of thought then it wasn’t his job to worry about such things. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-atheism-the-way-to-go/89118.md?page=2)