# Is atheism the way to go? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 23, 2001, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-atheism-the-way-to-go/89118 "2001-10-23T16:48:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2001, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-atheism-the-way-to-go/89118/21 "2001-10-23T21:43:06Z")
> [@](#): > > I am saying that the majority, if not ALL wars have some basis in religion along with many other factors. I don’t know why so many are hesitant to admit that. Well, I for one am _always_ hesitant to “admit” something which is at best ignorant and at worst completely false. Neither the First nor the Second World Wars were fought over religion. Looking over US history, we can see that in addition to the above, religion was not a cause of or a factor in our participation in the Revolutionary War, the War of 1812, the Civil War, the Spanish-American War, Korea, Vietnam, Grenada, Panama, Desert Shield/Storm, or the current conflict against al Qaeda and the Taleban. Did I leave anything out? Germany used religion to forward its national identity, as did Japan and Britain and the US. But one would be hard-pressed to present any compelling argument that religion started the German conquest of Europe, nor that it caused the Holocaust. **Obidiah** , your examples of religious failings do not serve well your point. Neither the Salem Trials nor the Klan have anything to do with war. Nor, really, did any of the various Inquisitions. Any unbiased historical accounts will demonstrate clearly that the Inquisitions, especially in Spain, were excuses for the exercise of hatred, bigotry, and unadulterated (and secular) greed. The Crusades are as close as you’ll get to an example of religious-based war, and again, it can be strongly argued that they were primarily governed by secular drives, with a religious veneer. Granted, it can easily be argued that the Irish/English conflict has religion at its roots, but it takes a peculiar lack of education to claim that religion is the sole cause. The Palestinian/Israeli conflict is also deeply rooted in religion. But a glance at the wars fought in the area will show that they were not religious wars–they were caused by the same old desires for land, power, and wealth. Religion has enough problems with which to take issue. Embracing the blatant falsehood that religion is the cause of all war is not serving your agenda well at all. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2001, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-atheism-the-way-to-go/89118/22 "2001-10-23T21:58:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by obidiah \* > \*\*december: > > C’mon…you know these are examples…there isn’t enough space in the forums to list them all. Well, there is, but you know what I mean. > I am saying that the majority, if not ALL wars have some basis in religion along with many other factors. I don’t know why so many are hesitant to admit that. > Religion is a powerful tool and can be used for a variety of reasons, some noble, some not so noble. History, both recent and ancient, has taught us that. It all goes along with being human…we are dogmatic and gregarious as the dickens. Some people need religion to justify their existance and explain the fear of the unknown, and that is a big fear. Others know how to expliot it, be it a corrupt televangelist or a leader of an Army. We expliot it in America and we know we do. \*\* **obidiah** , you mentioned space limitations, but you typed over 100 words without any examples at all. How about providing a mere 100 examples of wars caused by religion. I bet you can’t. IMHO it’s a feeble argument to dredge up a bad impact of religion from hundreds and hundreds of years ago (e.g., the Crusades) as if it proved something. To show the silliness of that approach, let’s apply it more widely: Germans are bad because Germanic tribes sacked Rome. 😕 Native Americans are bad because hundreds of years ago, some Indian tribes fought savagely against other tribes. 😕 Judiasm is bad because Jews killed Christ a mere two thousand years ago. 😕 African-American people are bad because 400 years ago, some Africans participated in the slave trade. 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Sumac](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Sumac](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sumac)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2001, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-atheism-the-way-to-go/89118/23 "2001-10-23T22:14:26Z")
Ya’ll are wrong and Chubbs is right. Atheism = smart, rational & peaceful. Ergo ipsofacto, the world would be a better place if everyone evolved beyond religion and the _need_ for G-d. ---
**Author:** ![g8rguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/7cd45c/32.png) [@g8rguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/g8rguy)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2001, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-atheism-the-way-to-go/89118/24 "2001-10-23T23:19:01Z")
> [@](#): > > Ya’ll are wrong and Chubbs is right. Atheism = smart, rational & peaceful. Ergo ipsofacto, the world would be a better place if everyone evolved beyond religion and the _need_ for G-d. Because there’s no such thing as a smart, rational, peaceful Christian (or Muslim, Jew, Buddhist, Wiccan, et cetera, et cetera, ad nauseum\*). Nor is there such a thing as a moronic, irrational, warlike atheist… :rolleyes: [sub]\*Look ma, I can use Latin to make my point sound better too![/sub] 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2001, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-atheism-the-way-to-go/89118/25 "2001-10-23T23:22:51Z")
All I know is, Atheism works for me. I get to sleep in on Sundays, and if voices in my head tell me to do things I check into the hospital before I do harm to others. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2001, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-atheism-the-way-to-go/89118/26 "2001-10-23T23:29:12Z")
Since religion is so clearly the cause of all wars and conflicts, perhaps we should round up all the religious folks and kill them, or just shoot them or drop bombs on them or something. ---
**Author:** ![Chubbs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/47e85d/32.png) [@Chubbs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chubbs)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2001, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-atheism-the-way-to-go/89118/27 "2001-10-23T23:43:22Z")
> [@](#): > > Since religion is so clearly the cause of all wars and conflicts, perhaps we should round up all the religious folks and kill them, or just shoot them or drop bombs on them or something. Atheist wouldn’t do that because they don’t care what God you believe in. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2001, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-atheism-the-way-to-go/89118/28 "2001-10-23T23:57:46Z")
Oops, how terribly naive of me, so no atheist regime would ever, for example, [imprison someone for refusing to renounce their faith](http://www.worldrelief.org/news/latest/ReligionTodayOct17.htm). Thanks for setting me straight on that one. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2001, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-atheism-the-way-to-go/89118/29 "2001-10-24T00:40:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Chubbs \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > Since religion is so clearly the cause of all wars and conflicts, perhaps we should round up all the religious folks and kill them, or just shoot them or drop bombs on them or something. > > Atheist wouldn’t do that because they don’t care what God you believe in. \*\* No, that only shows that an atheist wouldn’t use **that reason** for such atrocities. People will always find ways to justify their misdeeds. Heck, if a person does not believe that he must someday answer to God, might this person not feel justified in committing whatever misdeeds he can get away with? Mind you, I know that most atheists don’t behave with such complete depravity. I’m merely pointing out that atheism can ALSO be used to justify abominations against mankind. ---
**Author:** ![Chubbs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/47e85d/32.png) [@Chubbs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chubbs)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2001, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-atheism-the-way-to-go/89118/30 "2001-10-24T00:57:08Z")
Mangetout, See if you had no religion that would of not happened. My point is that religion causes animosity among others of other faiths and no two people ever interprets their holy word the same. Thus causing conflict. Get rid of all that, then there is no conlfict. ---
**Author:** ![BlackKnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eb8c5e/32.png) [@BlackKnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlackKnight)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2001, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-atheism-the-way-to-go/89118/31 "2001-10-24T01:28:47Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Chubbs \* > **Mangetout, See if you had no religion that would of not happened. My point is that religion causes animosity among others of other faiths and no two people ever interprets their holy word the same.** By this reasoning, there also would not be any animosity if we were all Christian, or all Muslim. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2001, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-atheism-the-way-to-go/89118/32 "2001-10-24T02:24:55Z")
> [@](#): > > Atheist wouldn’t do that because they don’t care what God you believe in. Ah, so you’re not an atheist then, eh **Chubbs**? Because if you were, then you wouldn’t care what God people believe in, and you wouldn’t have started the thread. Right? ---
**Author:** ![obidiah](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ed655f/32.png) [@obidiah](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/obidiah)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2001, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-atheism-the-way-to-go/89118/33 "2001-10-24T03:02:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > **You mentioned space limitations, but you typed over 100 words without any examples at all. How about providing a mere 100 examples of wars caused by religion. I bet you can’t.** Um, december, of course I can’t as I CLEARLY stated in NUMEROUS posts that all wars are not soley caused by religion, but by many, many factors of which religion is only one. If you show me where I said ALL wars were caused by religion alone then I will try to make a list. This will be difficult because I don’t think it is true, but I won’t let that stop me. However, it does seem clear that you are only reading into my posts what you want to see…I have not attacked religion anywhere in this forum, only stated that it is a important factor to consider. You would have to be woefully naive to think that religion is not a MAJOR motivator for people and as people start wars… Again I would like to make the point that when wars are seemingly fought over land, money and/or power that is ok, but as soon as someone DARES mentions that religion might have also played a role they put up the shields and get all defensive. ---
**Author:** ![obidiah](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ed655f/32.png) [@obidiah](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/obidiah)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2001, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-atheism-the-way-to-go/89118/34 "2001-10-24T03:22:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by andros \* > **Well, I for one am _always_ hesitant to “admit” something which is at best ignorant and at worst completely false.** Hmm, so you have established that religion in no way does religion play a role in warfare? Being as humans play a role in warfare, religion plays a role in warfare, along with numerous other factors. As I mentioned to **december** , I am not stating it is the only, main or most important factor. You and others have seemingly read that into my posts. > [@](#): > > \*\*Neither the First nor the Second World Wars were fought over religion. Looking over US history, we can see that in addition to the above, religion was not a cause of or a factor in our participation in the Revolutionary War, the War of 1812, the Civil War, the Spanish-American War, Korea, Vietnam, Grenada, Panama, Desert Shield/Storm, or the current conflict against al Qaeda and the Taleban. > > Did I leave anything out?\*\* The only thing you left out was reading my posts. Please show me where I said any war was fought over religion alone. What I said was > [@](#): > > **Finally, even if most of the major religions claim to be against wars the track record is so stellar. Examples: Spanish Inquisition, Crusades, Salem Witch Trials and the Ku Klux Klan.** in reply to sghoul’s post > [@](#): > > \*\*Most of the major religions are against wars. \*\* This is not an inditement against religion, only a few examples what what groups can do to twist religion around for the purpose of warfare. > [@](#): > > \*\*your examples of religious failings do not serve well your point. Neither the Salem Trials nor the Klan have anything to do with war. Nor, really, did any of the various Inquisitions. Any unbiased historical accounts will demonstrate clearly that the Inquisitions, especially in Spain, were excuses for the exercise of hatred, bigotry, and unadulterated (and secular) greed. The Crusades are as close as you’ll get to an example of religious-based war, and again, it can be strongly argued that they were primarily governed by secular drives, with a religious veneer. \*\* What is your definition of war? Webster defines it as: 1 a : _a state of hostility, conflict, or antagonism_ Using this defintion it seems ALL the conflicts you listed above can fall under the classification of war. > [@](#): > > \*\*Granted, it can easily be argued that the Irish/English conflict has religion at its roots, but it takes a peculiar lack of education to claim that religion is the sole cause. The Palestinian/Israeli conflict is also deeply rooted in religion. But a glance at the wars fought in the area will show that they were not religious wars–they were caused by the same old desires for land, power, and wealth. \*\* I will ignore the fact that you have called me uneducated especially since, as I mentioned before, I never said religion was the sole cause of war as you assert I did. > [@](#): > > \*\*Religion has enough problems with which to take issue. Embracing the blatant falsehood that religion is the cause of all war is not serving your agenda well at all. \*\* It seems clear that I am not the one with the agenda here. ---
**Author:** ![JubilationTCornpone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ee59a6/32.png) [@JubilationTCornpone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JubilationTCornpone)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2001, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-atheism-the-way-to-go/89118/35 "2001-10-24T04:12:12Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by BlackKnight \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by Chubbs \* > > **Mangetout, See if you had no religion that would of not happened. My point is that religion causes animosity among others of other faiths and no two people ever interprets their holy word the same.** > > By this reasoning, there also would not be any animosity if we were all Christian, or all Muslim. \*\* Moreover, religious disagreement is NOT the same thing as animosity, and animosity is NOT the same thing as war. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2001, 7:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-atheism-the-way-to-go/89118/36 "2001-10-24T07:39:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Chubbs \* > \*\*Mangetout, See if you had no religion that would of not happened. My point is that religion causes animosity among others of other faiths and no two people ever interprets their holy word the same. Thus causing conflict. Get rid of all that, then there is no conlfict. \*\* Wait a minute… you think there would be no conflict without religion? I disagree; I think you’re confusing cause and effect here, for example, you said: **"Everyone get some land build a house make a family and when you die nothing happens. No Heaven or Hell you just cease to exist. There you go World Peace"** So “get some land” - no possibility of territorial squabbles there then? Sorry **Chubbs** , but you’ve got it all mixed up; religion is certainly used as a _justification_ for all kinds of bad things, but I don’t think you can reasonably argue that it is the **only** root cause of human trouble. People do a lot of good stuff when motivated by religion too. Anyway, if your argument is that religion is used as a tool to manipulate impressionable people, then we’d better ban television, newspapers and the internet while we’re about it, hey, I know, instead, why don’t we just tell people what they can and can’t think; that would be better than indoctrinating them now, wouldn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![dierson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7feea3/32.png) [@dierson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dierson)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2001, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-atheism-the-way-to-go/89118/37 "2001-10-24T14:41:36Z")
\“Organized religion is a sham and a crutch for weak-minded people who need strength in numbers. It tells people to go out and stick their noses in other people’s business.”—Governor Jesse Ventura (Minnisota)\ Basically, if you have a weak mind,and need long-dead nomadic shepards to tell you how to live;then by all means do so. However, don’t try to intimidate me with your delusions. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2001, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-atheism-the-way-to-go/89118/38 "2001-10-24T14:44:12Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by dierson \* > \*\*Basically, if you have a weak mind,and need long-dead nomadic shepards to tell you how to live;then by all means do so. However, don’t try to intimidate me with your delusions. \*\* Straw man, bleh! ---
**Author:** ![nerv](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/85e7bf/32.png) [@nerv](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nerv)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2001, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-atheism-the-way-to-go/89118/39 "2001-10-24T15:04:41Z")
Would there be fewer wars? I don’t know. Would there be fewer holy wars? I guess so. :0 ---
**Author:** ![nerv](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/85e7bf/32.png) [@nerv](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nerv)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2001, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-atheism-the-way-to-go/89118/40 "2001-10-24T15:06:34Z")
Oops! That :0 should have been a 🙂 (Preview is your friend) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-atheism-the-way-to-go/89118.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-atheism-the-way-to-go/89118.md?page=3)