# Is Bachman 1) an Anti-Catholic or 2) a Godless Heathen? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [July 15, 2011, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bachman-1-an-anti-catholic-or-2-a-godless-heathen/589160 "2011-07-15T19:23:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Recovering\_Republican](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@Recovering\_Republican](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Recovering_Republican)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2011, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bachman-1-an-anti-catholic-or-2-a-godless-heathen/589160/41 "2011-07-17T16:52:03Z")
> [@Typo\_Knig](#): > > I’m not asking you to feel guilty. After all you say you’re no longer Catholic, and I assume you’re not Jewish 😉 > > I am asking you to recognize some of the negatives in our shared history, and the consequential reactions in the communities who were victimized by that history. Why might the African-American have residual anger at our society? Perhaps because they had only the legal rights of dirt until recently, and that in too many ways they are still being treated that way. I am not African-American, and nobody in my family owned slaves (as it was not possible for Russian peasants who came over in the 1880s to do so). I see society’s ills through a lens of economics rather than race. But I recognize that given their history members of the African-American community might feel diferently. Heck if any random person could diminish me and my accomplishments by calling me a kike (equivalent if I were African-American and were called the N word), I’d see the world though a racial lens as well. But you see, I don’t buy that. If they have residual anger, it’s because we have race pimps like Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson and yes, Jeremiah Wright stoking it all the time. If you want to say you can diminish someone by calling them a name, then who hasn’t been called a name some time in their lives? If you have to work twice as hard to get the same recognition, (whether it be due to skin color or gender or even if you have a receding hairline), then you work just as hard. That’s life, man. Life ain’t fair. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Knig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@Typo\_Knig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Knig)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2011, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bachman-1-an-anti-catholic-or-2-a-godless-heathen/589160/42 "2011-07-17T18:11:04Z")
> [@Recovering\_Republican](#): > > But you see, I don’t buy that. If they have residual anger, it’s because we have race pimps like Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson and yes, Jeremiah Wright stoking it all the time. If you want to say you can diminish someone by calling them a name, then who hasn’t been called a name some time in their lives? If you have to work twice as hard to get the same recognition, (whether it be due to skin color or gender or even if you have a receding hairline), then you work just as hard. That’s life, man. Life ain’t fair. You are very lucky if you think life is always that simple. Keeping things within the thread, re-read **Folacin** ’s story about his brother and his brother’s HS girlfriend. Their relationship may or may not have made it, but it could not stand against the gal’s family’s anti-Catholic prejudices. I’d suggest trying to have honest conversations with your real-world colleagues of color, or your Army buddies of color, about their experiences with racism. I think you’ll learn that sometimes working twice or three times as hard isn’t enough if you’re a minority. You may also get some insight into why race-baiting jerks like Sharpton, Jackson, Wright, etc., get any traction at all within the African-American community. I no fan of Sharpton, but the best thing I ever saw him in was a segment of the Daily Show where he and Stewart talked about the revelation that Strom Thurmond’s great-grandfather owned Sharpton’s great-grandfather. Stewart said he knew his great-grandfather, so Sharpton had been in direct contact with a man who had been a slave, or at most one person removed. Speaking as someone who also knew one of his great-grandfathers, and quoting Faulkner, “The past is not dead. In fact, it’s not even past.” ---
**Author:** ![galveston](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/41988e/32.png) [@galveston](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/galveston)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2011, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bachman-1-an-anti-catholic-or-2-a-godless-heathen/589160/43 "2011-07-17T19:45:37Z")
> [@Kolga](#): > > Texas is only solvent on paper, because Perry moved some state obligations to a different fiscal year in order to be able to say “I balanced Texas’ budget” while he campaigns for president. > > I also am not sure that it’s even solvent [on paper](http://www.economist.com/node/18744627) Really!!! More jobs created in the private sector recently than anywhere in the US. No state income tax. Lower unemployment. All on paper, of course. OF course!!!😃 ---
**Author:** ![galveston](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/41988e/32.png) [@galveston](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/galveston)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2011, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bachman-1-an-anti-catholic-or-2-a-godless-heathen/589160/44 "2011-07-17T19:47:49Z")
> [@Profound\_Gibberish](#): > > Jesus F’n Christ! When did The Schwartz become a Democrat!?!?!?!? Did I miss that in the papers? > > And if I am correct, wasn’t Arnie’s biggest problems with his own Repubs that wanted to keep the pork, graft and corruption flowing in their direction? > > Not sayin’ Dems could do any better, but lets not drink the Red KoolAid too liberally (pardon the pun), OK? Every conservative knows Arnie is a RINO. He is a liberal. ---
**Author:** ![galveston](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/41988e/32.png) [@galveston](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/galveston)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2011, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bachman-1-an-anti-catholic-or-2-a-godless-heathen/589160/45 "2011-07-17T19:52:48Z")
> [@kenetic](#): > > California is bankrupt because of [Prop. 13](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prop_13), which lowered taxes. So we’re bankrupt due to _conservative_ policies. > > And do we really need to do another round of explaining how red states are generally _net consumers_ of federal funds while blue states are net providers? You are kiddin, right? Prop 13 is the only thing that bankrupted California? Get real. And FYI Texas turned down some federal funds for education because of all the strings attached. ---
**Author:** ![Kolga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e56c9b/32.png) [@Kolga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolga)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2011, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bachman-1-an-anti-catholic-or-2-a-godless-heathen/589160/46 "2011-07-17T20:02:44Z")
> [@galveston](#): > > Really!!! > > More jobs created in the private sector recently than anywhere in the US. > > No state income tax. > > Lower unemployment. > > All on paper, of course. OF course!!!😃 You said “solvent.” I was pointing out the budget issues that make the determination that Texas is solvent problematic. You didn’t mention any of the other things you listed. ---
**Author:** ![galveston](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/41988e/32.png) [@galveston](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/galveston)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2011, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bachman-1-an-anti-catholic-or-2-a-godless-heathen/589160/47 "2011-07-17T20:10:44Z")
This may not matter to anyone else, but I like Bachmann because she stands for fiscal responsibility, as not raising the debt ceiling (me adding unless we get more up front spending cuts than the raised), repealing Obamacare, strengthening the traditional family, and secure borders, don’t raise taxes during a recession, to name a few things. These may not appeal to you, but they do to me. (No, I’m not rich!) ---
**Author:** ![Recovering\_Republican](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@Recovering\_Republican](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Recovering_Republican)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2011, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bachman-1-an-anti-catholic-or-2-a-godless-heathen/589160/48 "2011-07-17T20:12:05Z")
> [@Typo\_Knig](#): > > You are very lucky if you think life is always that simple. Keeping things within the thread, re-read **Folacin** ’s story about his brother and his brother’s HS girlfriend. Their relationship may or may not have made it, but it could not stand against the gal’s family’s anti-Catholic prejudices. ." Not in the same category, since if you really believe in that silly nonsense, then you really believe people’s souls are at risk. I personally rejected the notion that God can be such a prick that he’ll condemn otherwise good people to hell, but hey, people really believe that crap. On both sides. > [@](#): > > I’d suggest trying to have honest conversations with your real-world colleagues of color, or your Army buddies of color, about their experiences with racism. I think you’ll learn that sometimes working twice or three times as hard isn’t enough if you’re a minority. You may also get some insight into why race-baiting jerks like Sharpton, Jackson, Wright, etc., get any traction at all within the African-American community. ." Oh, I have. my attitudes aren’t moved. Frankly, instead of whining about “racists”, they need to clean up their own acts. > [@](#): > > I no fan of Sharpton, but the best thing I ever saw him in was a segment of the Daily Show where he and Stewart talked about the revelation that Strom Thurmond’s great-grandfather owned Sharpton’s great-grandfather. Stewart said he knew his great-grandfather, so Sharpton had been in direct contact with a man who had been a slave, or at most one person removed. Speaking as someone who also knew one of his great-grandfathers, and quoting Faulkner, “The past is not dead. In fact, it’s not even past.” What I remember about Sharpton is that he perpetrated the Tawana Brawley rape hoax and tried to destroy a lot of people in the process. The man should never be allowed in polite society after that. ---
**Author:** ![SeldomSeen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7ba0ec/32.png) [@SeldomSeen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SeldomSeen)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2011, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bachman-1-an-anti-catholic-or-2-a-godless-heathen/589160/49 "2011-07-17T20:15:37Z")
> [@Recovering\_Republican](#): > > That’s life, man. Life ain’t fair. A republican lacky paraphrasing _Jimmy Carter_!??:eek: Guy, you ain’t _nearly_ recovered enough yet! > [@](#): > > Well, as you know, there are many things in life that are not fair, that wealthy people can afford and poor people cant.\* \*Pres. Jimmy Carter, news conference, Washington, D.C., July 12, 1977. ---
**Author:** ![Knorf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/58956e/32.png) [@Knorf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knorf)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2011, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bachman-1-an-anti-catholic-or-2-a-godless-heathen/589160/50 "2011-07-17T20:39:09Z")
> [@galveston](#): > > Prop 13 is the only thing that bankrupted California? Not the only thing, by a long shot. But a primary contribution, definitely. ---
**Author:** ![Folacin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/folacin/32/3195_2.png) [@Folacin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Folacin)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2011, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bachman-1-an-anti-catholic-or-2-a-godless-heathen/589160/51 "2011-07-17T21:47:17Z")
> [@Recovering\_Republican](#): > > Oh, I have. my attitudes aren’t moved. Frankly, instead of whining about “racists”, they need to clean up their own acts. Wow - are you talking about individuals cleaning up their act? One of my eye-opening moments happened during what we’d now call diversity training (it was in the 80’s, so I think it had another name back then). Basically, an all hands meeting of our programming staff. The facilitator asked all of the African-American’s who had been stopped for ‘driving while black’/‘shopping while black’/etc to stand. I think all but one (maybe two) stood up. Some may have been playing a victim card, but most were solid, middle-class professionals who were in turn the children of solid, middle-class professionals. Unless you’re suggesting that harassing one citizen for the actions of (stereotype alert) inner-city gang-bangers is acceptable. Although I guess it’s in line with the ‘assume all Muslims are terrorists’ meme popular on the right (I don’t recall reading anything like that from you - so no personal slam intended). ---
**Author:** ![PigArcher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bcef8e/32.png) [@PigArcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PigArcher)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2011, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bachman-1-an-anti-catholic-or-2-a-godless-heathen/589160/52 "2011-07-17T22:50:38Z")
> [@galveston](#): > > You are kiddin, right? > > Prop 13 is the only thing that bankrupted California? Get real. Not what I said, **Knorf** pointed out. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Knig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@Typo\_Knig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Knig)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2011, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bachman-1-an-anti-catholic-or-2-a-godless-heathen/589160/53 "2011-07-18T01:03:59Z")
> [@galveston](#): > > This may not matter to anyone else, but I like Bachmann because she stands for fiscal responsibility, as not raising the debt ceiling (me adding unless we get more up front spending cuts than the raised), repealing Obamacare, strengthening the traditional family, and secure borders, don’t raise taxes during a recession, to name a few things. > > These may not appeal to you, but they do to me. (No, I’m not rich!) Oh yeah, the original topic. Thanks for bringing us back, \*\*galveston[/]! Some quick counter points: Did Bachmann vote for Bush’s budgets in '07 or '08? If so she has no credibility on the fiscal responsibility thing. Every POTUS at least as far back as Nixon has promised to balance the budget. Only Clinton delivered on that promise. Who, by the way, raised taxes during a recession and thereby stabilized the federal budget and the economy as a whole. Rather than the economic disaster predicted by the Congressional Republicans we had a string of prosperous years undet Bubba. Obamacare will save the government money in the short and long run. You may not like that particular fact, but there it is. Also the health insurance system the PPACA replaced was not sustainable. Within a score of years you would only have millionaires insured. Another unhappy fact but there it is. Repeal will also be extremely difficult. Few health care bills have been successfilly repealed - I believe just 1 in US history. The PPACA has helped my family simply by ensuring my kids are covered under my plan until age 26. My kids have diagnosed special needs - this is huge and I am not letting it go. As for “protecting the traditional family” - I have followed the debate about legalizing gay marriage for years now and I have yet to encounter a reason for preventing gays from marrying in our very pluralistic society other than “gay sex is icky and I don’t like it”. Straight marriages are not limited to only christians, or people who have or will produce children, or even limited to one couple for life. If you are voting for any candidate on this issue you are being had. Conservatives have promised much to social conservatives in the last 30+ years, but delivered zero. I contend that the way to help families is not by using the legal system to cudgel them into outdated pidgeon holes. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2011, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bachman-1-an-anti-catholic-or-2-a-godless-heathen/589160/54 "2011-07-18T04:10:16Z")
> [@galveston](#): > > Every conservative knows Arnie is a RINO. He is a liberal. I believe you’ve dropped your sporran. Every true conservative! CMC fnord! ---
**Author:** ![Recovering\_Republican](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@Recovering\_Republican](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Recovering_Republican)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2011, 10:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bachman-1-an-anti-catholic-or-2-a-godless-heathen/589160/55 "2011-07-18T10:43:38Z")
> [@Folacin](#): > > Wow - are you talking about individuals cleaning up their act? One of my eye-opening moments happened during what we’d now call diversity training (it was in the 80’s, so I think it had another name back then). Basically, an all hands meeting of our programming staff. The facilitator asked all of the African-American’s who had been stopped for ‘driving while black’/‘shopping while black’/etc to stand. > > I think all but one (maybe two) stood up. Some may have been playing a victim card, but most were solid, middle-class professionals who were in turn the children of solid, middle-class professionals. > > Unless you’re suggesting that harassing one citizen for the actions of (stereotype alert) inner-city gang-bangers is acceptable. Although I guess it’s in line with the ‘assume all Muslims are terrorists’ meme popular on the right (I don’t recall reading anything like that from you - so no personal slam intended). BUt that’s exactly my point, isn’t it? They might not be the ones engaging in the unacceptable behavior, but there is too much tolerance of the ones who are. When you have rap music glorifying bad behavior, when you have a 65% illegitimacy rate in that community, and so on, really, there’s a point where you need to stop blaming whitey. _"“We need fathers to realize that responsibility does not end at conception.” …“Too many fathers are M.I.A, too many fathers are AWOL, missing from too many lives and too many homes,”_ - Barack Obama. Since you brought up the issue of muslims, I guess I do have a real problem with the TSA patted down and strip searching middle aged white people when there hasn’t been a rash of old people blowing stuff up. But we wouldn’t want to OFFEND anyone by going after the people more likely to engage in the bad behavior. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2011, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bachman-1-an-anti-catholic-or-2-a-godless-heathen/589160/56 "2011-07-18T15:54:58Z")
So what you’re saying is, it’s OK to be racist, because blacks really are uneducated and poorly-behaved? And that it doesn’t matter if an individual black person actually is well-behaved and educated, it’s still OK to assume that he’s not, just because of his skin color? ---
**Author:** ![Jas09](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d07c76/32.png) [@Jas09](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jas09)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2011, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bachman-1-an-anti-catholic-or-2-a-godless-heathen/589160/57 "2011-07-18T15:59:10Z")
Just to try to get the content-to-nonsense ration up in this thread, here is what Bachmann said about Rev. Wright back in 2008: > [@](#): > > BACHMANN: All I did on Chris Matthews is I questioned Chris Matthews and said, “look, if John McCain had friends like Jeremiah Wright and Bill Ayers and Father Pfleger, you’d be all over him Chris, but you’ve laid off of Barack Obama.” And so, he was using the word “Anti-American” and I told Chris, what I question are Barack Obama’s views. Because Barack Obama’s views are against America. They won’t be good for our country. If Rev. Wright’s sayings (according to Michelle Bachmann) imply that Barack Obama is Anti-American, then I can only assume that her preacher’s comments imply that she is Anti-Catholic. She happily jumped on that wagon back in 2008, even after Obama disavowed Wright’s rhetoric. The rest of her conversation is here: [http://thinkprogress.org/politics/2008/10/22/31130/bachmann-doubles-down/](http://thinkprogress.org/politics/2008/10/22/31130/bachmann-doubles-down/) ---
**Author:** ![Profound\_Gibberish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/65b543/32.png) [@Profound\_Gibberish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Profound_Gibberish)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2011, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bachman-1-an-anti-catholic-or-2-a-godless-heathen/589160/58 "2011-07-18T21:23:22Z")
This is so fun! Drop a bait in the pond and see what hits. My observation: \*\* The devout do not joke\*\* Progressives attempt to reason. Conservatives hit with bumper sticker-depth slogans. Conservatives just cannot take a step back and look at their reasoning. Attack, attack, attack to the point of absurdity. But they miss the absurdity because they cannot self-assess. Progressives think “Why can’t we all be reasonable?” Because reason is a fairly recent invention and is quite contradictory to the fundamental nature of human beings. So at the end of the day, who will be marginalized and who will continue a meaningful debate? ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2011, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bachman-1-an-anti-catholic-or-2-a-godless-heathen/589160/59 "2011-07-18T22:14:29Z")
> [@Jas09](#): > > Just to try to get the content-to-nonsense ration up in this thread, here is what Bachmann said about Rev. Wright back in 2008: > If Rev. Wright’s sayings (according to Michelle Bachmann) imply that Barack Obama is Anti-American, then I can only assume that her preacher’s comments imply that she is Anti-Catholic. She happily jumped on that wagon back in 2008, even after Obama disavowed Wright’s rhetoric. > > The rest of her conversation is here: [http://thinkprogress.org/politics/2008/10/22/31130/bachmann-doubles-down/](http://thinkprogress.org/politics/2008/10/22/31130/bachmann-doubles-down/) Well done! I had tried in vain for quite a few minutes to find that! (I knew she had made some comment.) And that is what makes this pertinent. As **Simplico** had said > [@Simplico](#): > > Did she actually try and pin Wright’s rhetoric on Obama or did just “her fellow Republicans” do that? You might have a point if she came out swinging against Obama’s attempts to disassociate himself with his former pastor, but its kinda silly to try and hang hypocracy on her for not acting in concert with what other people in her large and diverse political part said. With that hint I’ll add to your link. Here is more on [what she said then](http://rawstory.com/news/2008/GOP_Rep._Obama_Congress_may_be_1017.html): > [@](#): > > Sen. Barack Obama and certain members of Congress should be investigated by the media for “being anti-American,” Congresswoman Michelle Bachmann (R-MN) said. > > The Democratic presidential candidate’s ties to 1960s radical Bill Ayers and Rev. Jeremiah Wright cast suspicion on his claims to American values, Bachmann said in an interview with MSNBC’s Chris Matthews. She also connected “leftists” and “liberals” to her allegations about Obama’s character. > > “The news media should do a penetrating expose and take a look… at the views of the people in Congress and find out, ‘Are they pro-America or anti-America?’” Bachmann said. “I think people would love to see an expose like that.” … When asked by Matthews why Obama’s connection to Ayers is important, Bachmann said it “calls into question what Barack Obama’s true beliefs” are … “Anti-American is the point. The liberals that are Jeremiah Wright and that are Bill Ayers are over-the-top anti-American and that’s the question that Americans have.” > > Republican vice presidential candidate Sarah Palin said Obama “pals around with terrorists” in a clip shown by Matthews. Bachmann agreed with Palin’s statement. In fact, [here is the whole transcript!](http://blogs.suntimes.com/sweet/2008/10/rep_michele_bachmann_tells_chr.html) Coming out swinging is an understatement. Obama’s renounced associations were enough to call for an investigation into his Anti-American activities. So **Simplico**? Ping your hypocrisy meter yet? ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2011, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bachman-1-an-anti-catholic-or-2-a-godless-heathen/589160/60 "2011-07-19T03:19:54Z")
> [@Folacin](#): > > The facilitator asked all of the African-American’s who had been stopped for ‘driving while black’/‘shopping while black’/etc to stand. [hijack] Back when people from the Asian subcontinent were pretty new to Chicago’s suburbs an Indian doctor asked my wife why shopkeepers would follow her as she shopped. “They probably think you are a Gypsy.” [/hijack] [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bachman-1-an-anti-catholic-or-2-a-godless-heathen/589160.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bachman-1-an-anti-catholic-or-2-a-godless-heathen/589160.md?page=4)