# Is baptism 'swimming' legally? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [January 29, 2019, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-baptism-swimming-legally/828584 "2019-01-29T02:08:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2019, 10:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-baptism-swimming-legally/828584/21 "2019-01-29T10:46:26Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > If a body of water has a ‘no swimming’ law, would baptizing someone there be against the law. Asking specifically about NY and MA, but in general answers also appreciated. Why not move your baptism to a body of water that _doesn’t_ have a “no swimming” sign attached to it? Problem solved. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2019, 11:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-baptism-swimming-legally/828584/22 "2019-01-29T11:56:48Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Why not move your baptism to a body of water that _doesn’t_ have a “no swimming” sign attached to it? Problem solved. And pass up a chance to claim persecution? ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2019, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-baptism-swimming-legally/828584/23 "2019-01-29T12:08:51Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > I know it is not enforced this way, wading is allowed in MA in areas designated as no swimming. Where is this spelled out? I’ve never seen that. Most places the No Swimming signs are ignored completely. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2019, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-baptism-swimming-legally/828584/24 "2019-01-29T12:27:25Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > Where is this spelled out? I’ve never seen that. Most places the No Swimming signs are ignored completely. Here they are ignored, and the reason for here is it’s such a beautiful natural place. ---
**Author:** ![Bill\_Door](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@Bill\_Door](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bill_Door)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2019, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-baptism-swimming-legally/828584/25 "2019-01-29T13:20:28Z")
That two-year old at Disney who was killed by an alligator was wading in water posted “No Swimming”. How beautiful a place is has little bearing on the risks involved. ---
**Author:** ![SanVito](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sanvito/32/2805_2.png) [@SanVito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SanVito)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2019, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-baptism-swimming-legally/828584/26 "2019-01-29T13:40:20Z")
In the UK, I think the more common phrase is ‘no bathing’ which I take to mean both swimming and dunking in general. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2019, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-baptism-swimming-legally/828584/27 "2019-01-29T14:00:03Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Lets just say in the tradition of John the Baptist’s baptism of Jesus which is understood to be full immersion. > [@EscAlaMike](#): > > Understood by whom? Both Matthew’s and Mark’s Gospels refer to John baptizing people “in the Jordan River.” I guess John and the person being baptized could have waded out into the Jordan, then John could have cupped some water in his hands and dumped it on the baptizee’s head. (‘Baptizee’ probably isn’t a word, but it _should_ be. ;)) But immersion seems more likely, don’t you think? ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2019, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-baptism-swimming-legally/828584/28 "2019-01-29T14:04:34Z")
> [@Beckdawrek](#): > > But an urban area water fountain or other water site that is clearly signed up. No. Don’t go in without asking permission first. Don’t ask me how I know you can’t get in a fountain. It’s a great source of shame for me.😉 > [@kaylasdad99](#): > > Somebody needs to show **Beckdawrek** where the shame smilie is… > [@Beckdawrek](#): > > That would be nice. Hey, what are you saying? I SHOULD be ashamed? How dare you:) > [@Beckdawrek](#): > > Yesh, those fountain showers are quite arresting. Sounds like there’s a story here. 😃 I once took a brief nighttime skinnydip in a fountain a few blocks from the U.S. Capitol. No arrests involved; I don’t think anybody noticed besides my companion. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2019, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-baptism-swimming-legally/828584/29 "2019-01-29T14:21:06Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Here they are ignored, and the reason for here is it’s such a beautiful natural place. Again, where did you see in Massachusetts that No Swimming specifically allows wading? I’m in MA and I’ve never seen anything spelled out like that. ---
**Author:** ![senoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@senoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/senoy)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2019, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-baptism-swimming-legally/828584/30 "2019-01-29T14:43:05Z")
‘No swimming’ generally isn’t a ‘law.’ It’s a posted notice of what the property owner considers allowable use of the property. In public areas, it’s what the government considers allowable use. As such, the ‘law’ you would be subject to would be trespass law. As to whether baptizing or wading constitutes a violation of that, it likely depends upon how the judge feels a reasonable person would interpret the sign. If the sign says, ‘No swimming, strong currents’ they might side with the wader since currents are less impactful of someone with their feet in the water. If the sign says, "Sensitive environment, no swimming.’ they are probably going to say a reasonable reading would also prohibit wading since that impacts the environment as much as swimming. As for baptism by immersion, that’s a completely different subject and for the purpose of this question it’s fine to say that there are certainly some Christian denominations that feel that immersion is the only valid form of baptism and apply that standard to the Original Question. As a United Methodist, we recognize three forms as valid (Aspersion, Affusion and Immersion - colloquially, sprinkling, pouring and dunking (whether partially or fully)) And we certainly wouldn’t go down to a river with a no swimming sign and start putting people under water without permission from the landowner. That’s not a particularly ‘Christian’ act. Although it would likely never come up since probably 95% of our baptisms are Aspersion or Affusion of babies and we don’t make a habit of holding 2 month olds under water. The other 5% are adults who can do it however they want, but it’s incredibly rare for them to want to go to a river when they can have a pretty church ceremony instead although in more rural churches I’ve seen it happen, but always in legal and public areas. Anyway, this is way off-topic. ---
**Author:** ![Beckdawrek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beckdawrek/32/3647_2.png) [@Beckdawrek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beckdawrek)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2019, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-baptism-swimming-legally/828584/31 "2019-01-29T16:39:31Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Sounds like there’s a story here. 😃 > > I once took a brief nighttime skinnydip in a fountain a few blocks from the U.S. Capitol. No arrests involved; I don’t think anybody noticed besides my companion. 🙂 I’ll never tell.😉 ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2019, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-baptism-swimming-legally/828584/32 "2019-01-29T16:52:12Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > I once took a brief nighttime skinnydip in a fountain a few blocks from the U.S. Capitol. No arrests involved; I don’t think anybody noticed besides my companion. John Quincy Adams? ---
**Author:** ![kopek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kopek/32/337_2.png) [@kopek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kopek)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2019, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-baptism-swimming-legally/828584/33 "2019-01-29T16:53:51Z")
> [@Beckdawrek](#): > > Most Baptist churches have a baptismal font. The old country churches? Maybe not, they’ll use a local pond. But an urban area water fountain or other water site that is clearly signed up. No. Don’t go in without asking permission first. Don’t ask me how I know you can’t get in a fountain. It’s a great source of shame for me.😉 Even if they are not signed depending on what you are doing. Many years ago I was involved in an incident in the fountain of Point State Park involving a couple canoes, a Brit and a couple Delawares, and a general idea of canoe racing. Alcohol was involved. No fines were levied but the park staff got chewed out and that was passed along to the appropriate parties. IE – me. Oh -------- and in case you ever wondered ------- using a canoe to raid the Gateway Clipper Fleet for beer is also a no-no. Apparently on several different levels. And you will never know the odd things that happen at historic sites once you go home. You may actually not want to know. ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2019, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-baptism-swimming-legally/828584/34 "2019-01-30T01:39:45Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Both Matthew’s and Mark’s Gospels refer to John baptizing people “in the Jordan River.” I guess John and the person being baptized could have waded out into the Jordan, then John could have cupped some water in his hands and dumped it on the baptizee’s head. (‘Baptizee’ probably isn’t a word, but it _should_ be. ;)) But immersion seems more likely, don’t you think? Obviously, we don’t know for sure. John’s ritual was likely influenced by the Jewish practice of _tvilah_, ritual washing. While this involved bathing it didn’t necessarily involve total immersion (as in, head under water) and, more to the point, it was something you did to yourself; you didn’t have somebody else do it to you. The gospels describe John baptising people, and that suggests that he _did_ do somethign by way of participation in the ritual; he didn’t just stand by and watch you bathe. But the “something” could either have been total immersion at his hands (as is practiced today in some Christian traditions) or it could have been him joining in the washing by, e.g. pouring water on the candidate (as is practiced in other contemporary Christian traditions) or even by John washing the candidate (in the way that a parent might wash a child or an infant). Basically, we have no idea. The earliest depictions of the ritual, botht those which depict John baptising and those which depict baptism in the abstract, show the candidate standing in flowing water while the minister pours water over him. But they are from the third century, and from Rome, so there are no guide what actually happened in the first century in Palestine. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2019, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-baptism-swimming-legally/828584/35 "2019-01-30T01:55:38Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > Again, where did you see in Massachusetts that No Swimming specifically allows wading? I’m in MA and I’ve never seen anything spelled out like that. Bash Bish Falls, which the stream crosses into NY as well. Both have no swimming signs, MA side has a ranger DEP dude who comes and yells at the swimmers in the falls splash pool till they are wading then retreats, wading down stream also seems OK. There are No Swimming signs. A little downstream it crosses into NY where multiple deep pools are frequently played in and sometimes swam in, again No Swimming signs are at least at some of the easier to get to deeper pools. So standing in the water in MA seems OK, but does full immersion constitute swimming? It does seem outside wading. NY side is also a option. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2019, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-baptism-swimming-legally/828584/36 "2019-01-30T02:20:08Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > I once took a brief nighttime skinnydip in a fountain a few blocks from the U.S. Capitol. No arrests involved; I don’t think anybody noticed besides my companion. 🙂 I’ve known you for decades and only tonight to I learn you are Wilbur Mills, which makes your companion Fanne Foxe. You rock, bro! > [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > John Quincy Adams? I married a One-D Adams and difficulty keeping ones clothes on runs in the family. ---
**Author:** ![Beckdawrek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beckdawrek/32/3647_2.png) [@Beckdawrek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beckdawrek)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2019, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-baptism-swimming-legally/828584/37 "2019-01-30T03:38:55Z")
Ah, Wilbur Mills. Arkansas political history is just full of speshul folks. ---
**Author:** ![Channing\_Idaho\_Banks](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/channing_idaho_banks/32/250_2.png) [@Channing\_Idaho\_Banks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Channing_Idaho_Banks)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2019, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-baptism-swimming-legally/828584/38 "2019-01-30T04:12:32Z")
This Thread makes me wonder whether there are cases of people dying during baptism because they picked the wrong spot in the river to dip in. ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2019, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-baptism-swimming-legally/828584/39 "2019-01-30T05:12:41Z")
> [@Channing\_Idaho\_Banks](#): > > This Thread makes me wonder whether there are cases of people dying during baptism because they picked the wrong spot in the river to dip in. [Indeed there are.](https://wgntv.com/2018/06/06/crocodile-mauls-pastor-to-death-during-baptism-ceremony-at-lake/) ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2019, 6:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-baptism-swimming-legally/828584/40 "2019-01-31T06:16:33Z")
> [@kopek](#): > > Even if they are not signed depending on what you are doing. Many years ago I was involved in an incident in the fountain of Point State Park involving a couple canoes, a Brit and a couple Delawares, and a general idea of canoe racing. Alcohol was involved. No fines were levied but the park staff got chewed out and that was passed along to the appropriate parties. > > IE – me. > > Oh -------- and in case you ever wondered ------- using a canoe to raid the Gateway Clipper Fleet for beer is also a no-no. Apparently on several different levels. > And you will never know the odd things that happen at historic sites once you go home. You may actually not want to know. I’ve always wanted to go wading in the Point. I’ll have to settle for PPG Place, I guess. ☹ [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-baptism-swimming-legally/828584.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-baptism-swimming-legally/828584.md?page=3)