# Is Barbarossa one of most spectacular military successes ever? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 22, 2011, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-barbarossa-one-of-most-spectacular-military-successes-ever/586362 "2011-06-22T00:49:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-barbarossa-one-of-most-spectacular-military-successes-ever/586362/41 "2011-06-22T19:01:34Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > I do. > > From the outset bomb them with leaflets telling them they’d get a bed, beer and three square meals and would be allowed to ride out the war then sent home to get on with life. Then actually follow-up on that (word of actual treatment has a way of getting out). > > The Russians probably would have surrendered en mass. They had no love for Stalin. > . But they had love for Russia. And not much for Germany. Remenber “Alexandre Nevski” (both the actual event and the “propaganda” movie made at this time)? ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-barbarossa-one-of-most-spectacular-military-successes-ever/586362/42 "2011-06-22T19:03:40Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > It would have been a much bigger propaganda and morale victory for the Nazi if they had taken Moscow and forced Stalin and the Soviet government to relocate beyond the Urals than it was for Napoleon to take the capital from the Czar. -XT Nitpick : Moscow wasn’t the capital of Russia at the time of Napoleon. St Petersburg was. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-barbarossa-one-of-most-spectacular-military-successes-ever/586362/43 "2011-06-22T19:54:36Z")
> [@cckerberos](#): > > Is it still a really bad plan if your ship is on fire? > > I think that’s how much of the Japanese leadership saw it, that if they didn’t go to war they’d be essentially capitulating without firing a shot. I’ve also heard the argument that a Germany-USSR war was inevitable and that 1941 was Germany’s best chance for victory. I don’t know if anyone within the German government was making that argument in the lead up to Barbarossa, though. Hitler _himself_ felt that “Bolshevism” wanted to overthrow other ideologies by any means possible. He warned of the attempts by Bolshevism to overthrow the old order through unrest, agitation, and corruption from the inside, and if that failed, than through direct conquest. Confrontation between Germany and the USSR was inevitable, in his mind. He made such beliefs known to anyone and everyone in high levels of party or national leadership, at length, and ad nauseam (his monlogues were known to last a couple hours on a regular basis), and in his book Mein Kampf, published in 1925. It was Hitler’s direct orders to plan for war with the Soviets. According to the wikipedia entry on the subject, there were several German military planners that warned that the occupation of such vast territories (if achieved) would be a net drain on Germany, but they were instructed to shut up and get with the program. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-barbarossa-one-of-most-spectacular-military-successes-ever/586362/44 "2011-06-22T19:59:37Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > Battle of Midway. Weaker, smaller, less experienced force trounced JIN due to superior intelligence and every break going against the JIN. Agincourt. Alexander v. Darius. In terms of numbers of aircraft, the opposing sides were evenly matched. Japan brought more ships, but a lot did not get close to the combat area. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-barbarossa-one-of-most-spectacular-military-successes-ever/586362/45 "2011-06-22T20:22:45Z")
Barbarossa was a complete failure-it began with success, but by December 1941, the German high command was getting uneasy-the German offensive had run out of steam…and more ominously, the German Army had NO winter gear. Soldiers were freezing to death in a (abortive) attack on Moscow (Operation Typhoon). General Guderian reported that the Russians had recovered from the initial shock, and once the Russians introduced the far superior T-34, the defeat of Germany was a matter of time. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-barbarossa-one-of-most-spectacular-military-successes-ever/586362/46 "2011-06-22T23:32:16Z")
> [@Sailboat](#): > > Oh, it just struck me – _today_ is the 70th anniversary of the start of Barbarossa (June 22, 1941). Is that what prompted the OP? > > What a hellish war ensued. ☹ The ulimate battle of evil vs. evil. ---
**Author:** ![Askance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askance/32/8281_2.png) [@Askance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askance)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2011, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-barbarossa-one-of-most-spectacular-military-successes-ever/586362/47 "2011-06-23T01:03:39Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > The German army, at the outset, were viewed as liberators by many Soviets. > > Then the Germans stomped on everyone and word gets out. Didn’t take long for them to stop welcoming the German army and start fighting them in earnest. > > I am just saying a decent effort at playing the part of liberator would go a long way to not have people trying to kill your soldiers. > > Try to depopulate an area and every mother, child, grandma and grandpa will oppose you. Makes life hard on an invading army. They may not be effective but the Germans galvanized the resistance against them when a bit of PR would have done wonders. No, the **Ukrainians** initially viewed the Germans as liberators, understandably given Stalin’s deliberate starvation of them previously. Russians may have loved or hated Stalin, but they loved their country and fought back magnificently. ---
**Author:** ![Askance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askance/32/8281_2.png) [@Askance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askance)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2011, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-barbarossa-one-of-most-spectacular-military-successes-ever/586362/48 "2011-06-23T01:14:18Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > Barbarossa was a complete failure-it began with success, but by December 1941, the German high command was getting uneasy-the German offensive had run out of steam..and more ominously, the German Army had NO winter gear. > Soldiers were freezing to death in a (abortive) attack on Moscow (Operation Typhoon). > General Guderian reported that the Russians had recovered from the initial shock, and once the Russians introduced the far superior T-34, the defeat of Germany was a matter of time. The T-34 was introduced in 1940, before the invasion. While on a tank-vs-tank basis it was superior to anything the Germans had, and was more suited to the terrain, the Soviet use of them was so poor that its technical advantages were almost irrelevant until later in the war. For instance only a tank platoon commander had radio, the other 8 tanks in the platoon could only observe what their commander did and try to follow along (the Soviets didn’t trust ordinary Russians with radios!). The Germans soon learned to kill the command tank first, the rest were then effectively helpless. In any case only about 2,000 were built by the end of 1940, by which time the Soviets had already stopped the German offensive through sheer stubbornness, numbers, attrition of the Germans (both by combat and mechanical breakdown) and of course the effects of winter compounded by the Germans’ over-extended supply lines. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2011, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-barbarossa-one-of-most-spectacular-military-successes-ever/586362/49 "2011-06-23T01:18:09Z")
> [@Askance](#): > > No, the **Ukrainians** initially viewed the Germans as liberators, understandably given Stalin’s deliberate starvation of them previously. Russians may have loved or hated Stalin, but they loved their country and fought back magnificently. Over one million Russians fought for Hitler. ---
**Author:** ![HubZilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ccd318/32.png) [@HubZilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HubZilla)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2011, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-barbarossa-one-of-most-spectacular-military-successes-ever/586362/50 "2011-06-23T02:01:51Z")
> [@Sailboat](#): > > Oh, it just struck me – _today_ is the 70th anniversary of the start of Barbarossa (June 22, 1941). Is that what prompted the OP? > > What a hellish war ensued. ☹ I just finished watching a Soviet movie called “Come and See” about the Eastern Front. Wow, talk about a movie that stays with you. Possibly the most intense war movie I’ve ever seen. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2011, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-barbarossa-one-of-most-spectacular-military-successes-ever/586362/51 "2011-06-23T02:44:01Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Over one million Russians fought for Hitler. I have seen total numbers for all foreign volunteers for the Germans reaching around 400,000 do you have a cite for that one million from Russia alone? ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2011, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-barbarossa-one-of-most-spectacular-military-successes-ever/586362/52 "2011-06-23T03:11:04Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > I have seen total numbers for all foreign volunteers for the Germans reaching around 400,000 do you have a cite for that one million from Russia alone? Page 162 of _Russia’s War: Blood Upon the Snow_ by Richard Overy ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2011, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-barbarossa-one-of-most-spectacular-military-successes-ever/586362/53 "2011-06-23T03:23:22Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Page 162 of _Russia’s War: Blood Upon the Snow_ by Richard Overy I looked at the search available on Google books, but it does not allow one to see the whole context, it seems that it refers to the number of Russians involved in forced military labor, I would not be surprised if many did help also Hitler in that capacity willingly, but when soldiers are concerned I have seen articles that report that not just any volunteer was allowed into the front. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2011, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-barbarossa-one-of-most-spectacular-military-successes-ever/586362/54 "2011-06-23T03:24:58Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > I have seen total numbers for all foreign volunteers for the Germans reaching around 400,000 do you have a cite for that one million from Russia alone? Here’s an online [cite](http://www.feldgrau.com/rvol.html) for there being a million Russian volunteers. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2011, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-barbarossa-one-of-most-spectacular-military-successes-ever/586362/55 "2011-06-23T03:50:52Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Here’s an online [cite](http://www.feldgrau.com/rvol.html) for there being a million Russian volunteers. The part with the “million Soviet citizens were fighting shoulder to shoulder with the invader” has no cite or source. I would say though that it would not surprise me that the numbers do refer not only to soldiers, but to willful civilian supporters. ---
**Author:** ![Askance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askance/32/8281_2.png) [@Askance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askance)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2011, 6:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-barbarossa-one-of-most-spectacular-military-successes-ever/586362/56 "2011-06-23T06:09:19Z")
Not to mention that the linked site is (or was, last I heard) run by a notorious Nazi apologist. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2011, 9:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-barbarossa-one-of-most-spectacular-military-successes-ever/586362/57 "2011-06-23T09:07:46Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Over one million Russians fought for Hitler. You’re yet again ignoring why a million Russians fought for the Germans (Hitler didn’t even know of the existence of the Osttruppen initially, it was done behind his back). As I quoted earlier in this thread, > [@](#): > > Between 1941 and 1945, the Axis powers took about 5.7 million Soviet prisoners. \*\*About one million of them were released during the war, in that their status changed but they remained under German authority. \*\*A little over 500,000 either escaped or were liberated by the Red Army. Some 930,000 more were found alive in camps after the war. **The remaining 3.3 million prisoners (57.5% of the total captured) died during their captivity.** The two bolded parts are intimately related. With few exceptions, Osttruppen didn’t serve for the Germans out of any love of Hitler or hatred of Stalin; they did it because the alternative was death by neglect and starvation at the hands of the Wehrmacht. > [@GIGObuster](#): > > The part with the “million Soviet citizens were fighting shoulder to shoulder with the invader” has no cite or source. > > I would say though that it would not surprise me that the numbers do refer not only to soldiers, but to willful civilian supporters. There’s a good lengthy article about it [here](http://www.mochola.org/russiaabroad/vlasan01.htm). Some bits of it: > [@](#): > > It is not known when and where exactly the first units of volunteers from the USSR, and from the countries annexed by Russia after 1939, were organized to fight against the Soviets on the German side. Their beginnings were shrouded in great secrecy, for fear of Hitler who was categorically opposed to any form of participation of Soviet citizens in the war against Russia. > > When the existence of numerous formations of Eastern volunteers came to light with the passing of time, Hitler was unpleasantly surprised. The hopeless military situation of the Reich forced him to approve this state of affairs. > > The forerunner of the volunteer formations was a voluntary auxiliary service, of a para-military character, which was started in the autumn of 1941 by the German Commands on the front. On their own initiative, they organized auxiliary units of various services, made up of Soviet deserters, prisoners, and volunteers from among the local population. These so-called “Hilfswillige,” or “Hiwi,” were employed as sentries, drivers, store- keepers, workers in depots, etc. The experiment surpassed all expectations. In the spring of 1942 there were already at least 200,000 of them in the rear of the German armies, and by the end of the same year their number was allegedly near 1,000,000 [Soviet Opposition to Stalin, p.45.]. > > The next step taken by the German Commands in the east behind Hitler’s back was the organization of voluntary military troops, called “Osttruppen,” clad in German uniforms and designed to guard communication lines, fight Soviet partisans in the rear of the German armies, and sometimes even hold less important sectors of the front. These troops seldom exceeded the strength of a battalion. In the middle of 1942, there were already 6 such battalions in the rear of Army Group Center alone. The majority of the Ostbattalions were withdrawn from the Eastern Front starting in September 1943 out of fears of their loyalties. Most German infantry divisions in France had at least one Ostbattalion by the time of D-Day, where they were often more than willing to surrender to the Allies en masse if given the chance, the only thing enforcing their loyalty were the German officers commanding them. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2011, 9:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-barbarossa-one-of-most-spectacular-military-successes-ever/586362/58 "2011-06-23T09:24:44Z")
> [@Askance](#): > > Not to mention that the linked site is (or was, last I heard) run by a notorious Nazi apologist. I just noticed the article I linked is the same one **Little Nemo** did, just on a differant site. I’ve never known feldgrau to be apologist towards the Nazis, the [Content and Research disclaimer page](http://www.feldgrau.com/articles.php?ID=68) reads in part: > [@](#): > > [Feldgrau.com](http://Feldgrau.com) does not support individuals or groups that are intolerant, racist, anti-semetic, or violent. We do not tolerate apologists or those who attempt to whitewash German history. Feldgrau also does not support those that use the theme of WWII history to further a political agenda. > > Feldgrau should in no way be viewed as an attempt to glorify the tragic events WWII. > > Feldgrau acknowledges that German units and formations were partly or entirely responsible for various war crimes and atrocities during the time of WWII. We do not focus on these tragic events as they are beyond the scope of our specialist research. This is in no way an attempt to minimize or lessen the importance of German war crimes and atrocities but to maintain the narrow focus of our information. There are many excellent resources that can be used to research war crimes and atrocities and we encourage those interested in the subject to pursue them. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2011, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-barbarossa-one-of-most-spectacular-military-successes-ever/586362/59 "2011-06-23T15:26:38Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Here’s an online [cite](http://www.feldgrau.com/rvol.html) for there being a million Russian volunteers. That web site seems to flip between Russian and Soviet at will. ---
**Author:** ![notquitekarpov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/71c47a/32.png) [@notquitekarpov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/notquitekarpov)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2011, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-barbarossa-one-of-most-spectacular-military-successes-ever/586362/60 "2011-06-23T16:11:28Z")
I think \*\*Dissonance \*\*has it largely correct. Far from **Barbarossa** not getting enough respect the truth is rather the other way around. It was doomed to failure from the very outset as logistically it was proven to be impossible by the German Staff. Hitler simply would not listen. I would recommend “Supplying War: Logistics from Wallenstein to Patton” by Martin van Crefeld for the quick overview as to why this was the case. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-barbarossa-one-of-most-spectacular-military-successes-ever/586362.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-barbarossa-one-of-most-spectacular-military-successes-ever/586362.md?page=4)