# Is Barry Bonds Having the Greatest Offensive Season Ever? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 28, 2001, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-barry-bonds-having-the-greatest-offensive-season-ever/84262 "2001-09-28T04:18:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2001, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-barry-bonds-having-the-greatest-offensive-season-ever/84262/1 "2001-09-28T04:18:26Z")
[Here’s](http://www.baseballprospectus.com/news/20010918doctoring.html) an article that makes this argument. Here’s an excerpt: > [@](#): > > Let’s stop for a moment. As sacred as Ruth’s home run record was, isn’t it true that Ruth’s record for slugging average was far more impressive? Sixty homers may have been the record for 34 years, but Hank Greenberg and Jimmie Foxx both hit 58 shortly after Ruth hit 60. But Ruth’s twin towers of slugging–.847 in 1920, .846 in 1921–have lasted for 80 years without a serious challenge. The highest slugging average posted by anyone other than Ruth, Lou Gehrig’s .765 mark, still fell 82 points short, which is greater than the difference between George Brett’s career mark and that of his brother Ken. Seriously. > > Today, with just three weeks left in the season, Bonds sits just nine points behind a mark most of us never thought we’d see approached, let alone broken. If Bonds hits two homers in his next game, he’ll pass Ruth’s slugging mark. > > Okay, so Bonds’s power is legendary. How about his on-base skills? After reaching base six times on September 7, Bonds’s OBP briefly touched .500 on the nose. A .500 OBP is not unprecedented–it’s been accomplished 15 times–but it hasn’t been seen in 44 years. The article goes into much greater depth. Bonds’s [numbers](http://espn.go.com/mlb/profiles/splits/2001/batting/3918.html) as of today: [ul] [li].319 BA[/li][li].502 OBP[/li][li].837 SLG (third best all-time)[/li][li]1.339 OPS (OBP+SLG) (third best all-time)[/li][li]67 HR (on pace for 71, best all-time)[/li][li]162 BB (on pace for 172, best all-time)[/li][li]100 extra-base hits (on pace for 106, fourth best all-time)[/li][li].365/.569/.885 with runners on base[/li][li].360/.627/.930 with runners in scoring position[/li][/ul] Thoughts? ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2001, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-barry-bonds-having-the-greatest-offensive-season-ever/84262/2 "2001-09-28T13:49:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Gadarene \* > \*\* > Thoughts? \*\* I would say he is not. I offer a few seasons I think are better: 1. Babe Ruth 1921. Ruth had slightly more power and got one base a little bit more than Bonds while playing in a league that was more or less offensively equal to the 2001 NL; on base percentages were higher, but slugging was lower. Ruth also missed only two games all year, while Bonds will miss a dozen or more. Ruth scored 177 runs that year. Wow. Perhaps most significantly, Ruth’s 1.359 OPS that year was not only unbelievably high, it was 308 points higher than anyone else’s. Bonds will not lead by such a wide margin. 1. Babe Ruth 1920. Percentage wise, even BETTER than 1921, but he missed a few more games. I’d say it’s as good or better than Bonds’s 2001. Ruth’s astounding 1923 is right up there, too. 1. Rogers Hornsby 1922. Not quite as good percentage wise as Bonds, but hey, the guy was a second baseman! So in terms of _value_ his bat may have been as good that year as anyone’s ever has. 2. Nap Lajoie 1901. See “Rogers Hornsby.” However, the American League in 1901 was a major league of questionable quality. Surprisingly, none of Ted Williams’s seasons ever quite matched the heights Ruth and Bonds have reached, and obviously you can’t give Williams positional credit. I would say that Bonds is having the third greatest season with the lumber ever. I would say Ruth’s 1921 is the best. ---
**Author:** ![eponymous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e0b2c6/32.png) [@eponymous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eponymous)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2001, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-barry-bonds-having-the-greatest-offensive-season-ever/84262/3 "2001-09-28T13:53:58Z")
Gaderene, I have to agree. Without doubt Barry Bonds is having one of the all-time greatest seasons ever in baseball. It would be sad if sportswriters decided that he isn’t deserving of the National League MVP and voted for someone else. Glad to see that some else follows the articles in the Baseball Prospectus… ---
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2001, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-barry-bonds-having-the-greatest-offensive-season-ever/84262/4 "2001-09-28T16:26:00Z")
Nice analysis, **RickJay**. Isn’t there a season or two for Honus Wagner that could make their way up there, as well? Gotta pull out my copy of The Diamond Appraised… **eponymous** , I have to confess that I started this thread mostly as a pretext to link to the Baseball Prospectus article. 🙂 The more people that know about that site, the better. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2001, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-barry-bonds-having-the-greatest-offensive-season-ever/84262/5 "2001-09-28T18:34:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Gadarene \* > **Nice analysis, RickJay. Isn’t there a season or two for Honus Wagner that could make their way up there, as well? Gotta pull out my copy of The Diamond Appraised…** I knew I was forgetting an infielder. Wagner’s numbers are harder to compare. Obviously he does not have to kind of incredible percentages Bonds and Ruth have, since A) nobody does and B) they didn’t hit home runs when Wagner was good. It’s not easy to compare eras. For instance, in 1905, Wagner had a .932 OPS. That doesn’t sound like much compared to Bonds and Ruth, but this was in a league where the average OPS was .662. In 1908 he put up a .957 when nobody else was higher than .816 and the league average was .599 (!). Obviously, with so few runs being scored - and a much higher percentage of runs were caused by errors instead of hits, so Wagner’s extra OPS may have been worth even MORE - creating extra runs is worth more. So did Wagner’s extra offense help his team win as many games as Bonds’s or Ruth’s? Maybe. But I don’t think he had any one season that was as good as Ruth did in 1921 or Bonds is having now. On the other hand, bearing in mind that Wagner was a SHORTSTOP, I would say he was every bit as good a player overall as Bonds or Ruth as a position player, and was probably the second greatest player of all time behind Ruth (who gets credit for pitching, of course.) And keeping his being a shortstop in mind, you have to think Wagner’s 1908 was as good a season as anyone has ever had. Wagner was as far beyond the 1908 National League as Bonds is beyond the 2001 NL. Wagner 1908: .354/.415/.542 NL average 1908: .239/.293/.306 ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2001, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-barry-bonds-having-the-greatest-offensive-season-ever/84262/6 "2001-09-28T20:23:18Z")
A suggestion: Given the title of the OP, I think we should exclude position as a consideration. Because once we start to give extra credit to Wagner and Hornsby because of position, then we have to ask “\*how good \*a (SS/2B/LF/etc.) were they?” Bonds is regarded as among the best LF gloves of all time – should that count when comparing his hitting to Ted Williams? Real quick we’re going to be heading into a discussion of how many errors Honus Wagner made in '08, the relative importance and reliability of defensive stats, and whether we should take into consideration the poor quality of early infields … I think we have lots to cover just with hitting numbers (plus it gives us more hope for a definitive answer). We’ve only started to discuss league-norm issues. Next we probably should look into home park factors. I’d do it but I gotta leave for work… ---
**Author:** ![middleman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e9a140/32.png) [@middleman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/middleman)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2001, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-barry-bonds-having-the-greatest-offensive-season-ever/84262/7 "2001-09-28T20:36:31Z")
How does Sosa’s 1998 season add up? Wasn’t he making a push for the RBI record as well as the HR record? (In my estimation, that RBI record is the most unattainable record this side of Cal’s). He also had a great average. .315 or so, right? Not bad when factoring in the 66 HRs. I don’t know if his record strike out count works against him, but I’d like to see you guys who know more about baseball history then I do size up his place in single season history. ---
**Author:** ![aggiej](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ec9cab/32.png) [@aggiej](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aggiej)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2001, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-barry-bonds-having-the-greatest-offensive-season-ever/84262/8 "2001-09-29T00:33:19Z")
bonds is a joke. as soon as the playoffs start barry will be on vacation as will the giants. baseball is a team sport and bonds is all about barry. if i’m in a crucial point in the playoffs give me someone like paul o’neil and tell barry to lay off the 'roids an dlose that wack dangly earring. ---
**Author:** ![Opus1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/858c86/32.png) [@Opus1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Opus1)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2001, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-barry-bonds-having-the-greatest-offensive-season-ever/84262/9 "2001-09-29T01:01:09Z")
Watsonwil: As good as Sosa’s season was, it wasn’t even as good as McGwire’s that year. Sosa had a relatively low walk total that year, which greatly decreases his OBP, and consequently his value. Sadly, like McGwire in 1998, there is a chance that a man having one of the top half dozen seasons in history will lose the MVP award because some other player racked up a bunch of RBI, or his team made it to the playoffs, or he is nicer to the media. Since the media is never going to get a clue, perhaps we should split the MVP award into two separate awards: the Player with the Best Stats award, and the Best Contributor Award. The latter could include such things as how well his team played that season, how much chemistry he brings to the team, etc. The former would be based on numbers alone, and would require passing a basic statistics exam before one could vote on it. (Yes, I am aware that there is the Hank Aaron award, but no one’s ever heard of that, and I think it’s done just using some formula.) ---
**Author:** ![Czaoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Czaoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czaoth)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2001, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-barry-bonds-having-the-greatest-offensive-season-ever/84262/10 "2001-09-29T04:08:12Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by aggiej \* > \*\*bonds is a joke. as soon as the playoffs start barry will be on vacation as will the giants. baseball is a team sport and bonds is all about barry. if i’m in a crucial point in the playoffs give me someone like paul o’neil and tell barry to lay off the 'roids an dlose that wack dangly earring. \*\* I can’t tell if your trying to be funny or you truly are serious. If you are serious: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: Bonds is one of the only reasons the Giants even have a shot at the playoffs. Bonds isn’t a team player? Huh? If I had to pick the most anti-social Giant I would pick Jeff Kent. Can’t see how Bonds isn’t a team player in your view, it is a team sport. Not exactly like Basketball where he could “hog” the ball throughout the game. Barry on steriods? :rolleyes:. I’ll leave the earring comment alone. Of course, if you are not serious, apologizes. ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2001, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-barry-bonds-having-the-greatest-offensive-season-ever/84262/11 "2001-09-29T05:25:55Z")
Well, as I write this, Barry Bonds has just completed his 5th at-bat in tonight’s Giants-Padres game. He’s been walked twice, hit a solo homer once (his 68th of the year), struck out once, and just now hit a double. Were his averages computed from this one game alone, he would have a Batting Average of .667 and and On-Base Percentage of .800. I’d say he’s doing rather well. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![aggiej](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ec9cab/32.png) [@aggiej](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aggiej)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2001, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-barry-bonds-having-the-greatest-offensive-season-ever/84262/12 "2001-09-29T05:37:17Z")
bonds IS a joke and here’s the punchline: postseason batting average: 0.200 hr: uno. i don’t care if bonds hits 99 homeruns he will never have a ring unless you count that sh\*t dangling from his steroid-engorged ear. ---
**Author:** ![Czaoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Czaoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czaoth)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2001, 6:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-barry-bonds-having-the-greatest-offensive-season-ever/84262/13 "2001-09-29T06:23:05Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by aggiej \* > \*\*bonds IS a joke and here’s the punchline: postseason batting average: 0.200 hr: uno. i don’t care if bonds hits 99 homeruns he will never have a ring unless you count that sh_t dangling from his steroid-engorged ear. \*\* As I understand it the OP is refering to Bonds current season. The fact that you keep bringing up the postseason of years past is helpful in seeing what he might do, but it doesn’t have much of a bearing on the GD. But what is this stuff about steriods? Could you provide a cite? A quick Google Search provided this and others to refute your steroid claims: [Article 1](http://www.contracostatimes.com/sports/columnists/hayes/stories/haze_20010708.htm) Is it hard to believe he might just be **that** good? ---
**Author:** ![middleman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e9a140/32.png) [@middleman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/middleman)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2001, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-barry-bonds-having-the-greatest-offensive-season-ever/84262/14 "2001-09-29T14:09:08Z")
Check out Rick Reilly’s SI Back page column. [http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/inside\_game/magazine/life\_of\_reilly/news/2001/08/21/life\_of\_reilly/](http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/inside_game/magazine/life_of_reilly/news/2001/08/21/life_of_reilly/) Reilly, normally a softie, really blasts the guy. ---
**Author:** ![Czaoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Czaoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czaoth)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2001, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-barry-bonds-having-the-greatest-offensive-season-ever/84262/15 "2001-09-29T18:46:53Z")
Link isn’t working for me for some reason. ---
**Author:** ![middleman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e9a140/32.png) [@middleman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/middleman)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2001, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-barry-bonds-having-the-greatest-offensive-season-ever/84262/16 "2001-09-29T20:06:49Z")
> [@](#): > > In the San Francisco Giants’ clubhouse, everybody knows the score: 24-1. > > There are 24 teammates, and there’s Barry Bonds. > > There are 24 teammates who show up to pose for the team picture, and there’s Bonds, who has blown it off for the last two years. > > There are 24 teammates who go out on the field before the game to stretch together, and there’s Bonds, who usually stretches indoors with his own flex guy. > > There are 24 teammates who get on the players’ bus at the hotel to go to the park, and there’s Bonds, who gets on the bus with the broadcasters, the trainers and the manager who coddles him. > > There are 24 teammates who eat the clubhouse spread, and there’s Bonds, whose nutritionist brings in special meals for him. > > There are 24 teammates who deal with the Giants’ publicity man, and there’s Bonds, who has his own clubhouse-roving p.r. guy, a freelance artist named Steve Hoskins, who turned down George Will’s request for an interview with Bonds because Hoskins had never heard of him. > > There are 24 teammates who hang out with one another, play cards and bond, and there’s Bonds, sequestered in the far corner of the clubhouse with his p.r. man, masseur, flex guy, weight trainer, three lockers, a reclining massage chair and a big-screen television that only he can see. > > Last week, after Bonds hit his 51st home run in a 13-7 win over the Florida Marlins, most of the players stayed to celebrate the victory, and at least one was gone before the press arrived in the clubhouse: Bonds. > > “That’s Barry,” says San Francisco second baseman Jeff Kent. “He doesn’t answer questions. He palms everybody off on us, so we have to do his talking for him. But you get used to it. Barry does a lot of questionable things. But you get used to it. Sometimes it rubs the younger guys the wrong way, and sometimes it rubs the veterans the wrong way. You just hope he shows up for the game and performs. I’ve learned not to worry about it or think about it or analyze it. I was raised to be a team guy, and I am, but Barry’s Barry. It took me two years to learn to live with it, but I learned.” > > If you get the feeling that Kent, who’s in his fifth season with San Francisco, wouldn’t spit on Bonds if Bonds were on fire, you might be right. Maybe it has something to do with last year, when Kent and Bonds were running neck and neck for the National League MVP award. The week before the award was to be announced, Bonds had a member of his entourage call the commissioner’s office to try to find out who had won. We’ve got to know, said the stooge, because if he’s not going to win, he can get out of town. > > Perfect! No staying around to congratulate Kent. Or going to the press conference to shake his hand. Just, “If it ain’t me, I’m outta here.” The commissioner’s office didn’t know the results of the voting. Kent won. > > Someday they’ll be able to hold Bonds’s funeral in a fitting room. When Bonds hit his 500th home run, in April, only one person came out of the dugout to greet him at the plate: the Giants’ batgirl. Sitting in the stands, you could’ve caught a cold from the freeze he got. Teammates 24, Bonds 1. > > Bonds isn’t beloved by his teammates. He’s not even beliked. He often doesn’t run out grounders, doesn’t run out flies. If a Giants pitcher gives up a monster home run over Bonds in leftfield, Bonds keeps his hands on his knees and merely swivels his head to watch the ball sail over the fence. He’s an MTV diva, only with bigger earrings. > > “On the field, we’re fine,” says Kent, “but off the field, I don’t care about Barry and Barry doesn’t care about me. [Pause.] Or anybody else.” > > Bonds will be a free agent after this season, and if he decides to sign elsewhere, will the Giants be devastated? Kent grimaces. “See: Seattle Mariners,” he says, walking away. > > Bonds is brilliant. He was the best player of the 1990s, and at 37 he’s having his most magnificent season, on pace at week’s end to break the single-season home run record of 70 and nearly lapping the league in slugging percentage, on-base percentage and walks. He should be the MVP. > > But that doesn’t mean you have to root for him. > > Issue date: August 27, 2001 ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2001, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-barry-bonds-having-the-greatest-offensive-season-ever/84262/17 "2001-09-29T22:12:12Z")
Yes, and it’s also been said by many (check [espn.com](http://espn.com) for some) that SI has had a hard-on for BB for years. I’ll look for the cite. More to the point, so what? Babe Ruth was an alcoholic womanizer. Ty Cobb was a hate-filled psychopath. Barry Bonds is an asshole. But he’s never punched an umpire in the face (as Ruth did), nor has he charged into the stands to beat up a quadriplegic (as Cobb did). Get over it. Reilly’s contribution to this conversation is: > [@](#): > > …on pace at week’s end to break the single-season home run record of 70 and nearly lapping the league in slugging percentage, on-base percentage and walks. He should be the MVP. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2001, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-barry-bonds-having-the-greatest-offensive-season-ever/84262/18 "2001-09-29T22:30:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by watsonwil \* > \*\*Check out Rick Reilly’s SI Back page column. > > [http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/inside\_game/magazine/life\_of\_reilly/news/2001/08/21/life\_of\_reilly/](http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/inside_game/magazine/life_of_reilly/news/2001/08/21/life_of_reilly/) > > Reilly, normally a softie, really blasts the guy. \*\* We’ve been through Reilly’s column before; many of his statements have an absurdly negative spin and are wildly out of context, and at least one is an outright lie (the one about his teammates not being excited over his 500th home run.) Sports Illustrated’s grudge against Bonds for missing an interview a few years ago has nothing to do with how great a season he’s having, and frankly doesn’t have anything to do with baseball. ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2001, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-barry-bonds-having-the-greatest-offensive-season-ever/84262/19 "2001-09-29T23:21:16Z")
Barry Bonds just hit his 69th home run of the year. If he doesn’t hit another home run all season, he will be hounded for the rest of his life by the twin demons of:[ul][li]Almost, but _not quite_, tying the single-season home run record; and[/li]Having everybody make “69” jokes about him.[/ul] ---
**Author:** ![ihrkelings](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/977dab/32.png) [@ihrkelings](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ihrkelings)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2001, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-barry-bonds-having-the-greatest-offensive-season-ever/84262/20 "2001-09-30T00:01:24Z")
I love baseball. I love the stats… I love seeing bodies perform amazing athletic feats. I love the idea that only two people have ever done this in recent memory. I could care less about comparing ancient baseball to the present. We are in an era of everyone using sports and science to the absolute physical edge, and still, only a few people are amazing examples of excellence. Barry Bonds is GREAT. There are many others who are improving their skills, many others who are Playing, and Managing, their best. But they aren’t all going to hit that well, and they aren’t all going to win, and they aren’t all going to be someone else’s idea of a friend. The measure of any man is if he is loving toward his own family and friends. Seems to me Barry knows what this means to him, and that’s all that matters. This has been a great year for baseball. Barry is the best of the best…yeah, I know I sound superfluous. And while I’m up here …GO METS!!! GO INDIANS!!! [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-barry-bonds-having-the-greatest-offensive-season-ever/84262.md?page=2)