# Is baseball player Jim Thome going into the Hall of Fame at Cooperstown or not? **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [August 16, 2011, 9:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-baseball-player-jim-thome-going-into-the-hall-of-fame-at-cooperstown-or-not/592883 "2011-08-16T09:44:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2011, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-baseball-player-jim-thome-going-into-the-hall-of-fame-at-cooperstown-or-not/592883/21 "2011-08-16T19:21:24Z")
> [@markdash](#): > > At bats are one thing, what about plate appearances? It seems the AB list would reward high-walk guys. I think Thome hit his 600th homer in his 10,020th plate appearance. That would put him at third-fewest: Babe Ruth 8,733 Sammy Sosa 9,697 _Jim Thome 10,020_ Alex Rodriguez 10,048 Barry Bonds 10,218 Ken Griffey Jr. 10,423 Willie Mays 10,819 Hank Aaron 11,191 ---
**Author:** ![etv78](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d78d45/32.png) [@etv78](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/etv78)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2011, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-baseball-player-jim-thome-going-into-the-hall-of-fame-at-cooperstown-or-not/592883/22 "2011-08-16T20:04:38Z")
I assumed he had the fewest hits, but looking at his stats, I’m not sure. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2011, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-baseball-player-jim-thome-going-into-the-hall-of-fame-at-cooperstown-or-not/592883/23 "2011-08-16T20:08:59Z")
Despite assuring Cleveland fans that he was here to stay and wanted to play his entire career here, and then yielding to the siren song of filthy lucre to go to Philly, yes, I expect he’ll make it into the HoF. Me? Bitter? Well, maybe a little… ---
**Author:** ![etv78](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d78d45/32.png) [@etv78](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/etv78)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2011, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-baseball-player-jim-thome-going-into-the-hall-of-fame-at-cooperstown-or-not/592883/24 "2011-08-16T20:13:01Z")
> [@etv78](#): > > I assumed he had the fewest hits, but looking at his stats, I’m not sure. went to ESPN, and he is behind Sosa. (the 1 guy I thought he’d be in front of) ---
**Author:** ![etv78](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d78d45/32.png) [@etv78](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/etv78)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2011, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-baseball-player-jim-thome-going-into-the-hall-of-fame-at-cooperstown-or-not/592883/25 "2011-08-16T20:14:22Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > Despite assuring Cleveland fans that he was here to stay and wanted to play his entire career here, and then yielding to the siren song of filthy lucre to go to Philly, yes, I expect he’ll make it into the HoF. > > Me? Bitter? Well, maybe a little… Thought it’s been established here that leaving Cleveland wasn’t his choice. ---
**Author:** ![Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de053/32.png) [@Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackknifed_Juggernaut)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2011, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-baseball-player-jim-thome-going-into-the-hall-of-fame-at-cooperstown-or-not/592883/26 "2011-08-16T20:31:37Z")
The entire era is tainted. They were all juicing. Every single one of them. Without testing, PED’s were legal in MLB (for all practical purposes). If they weren’t, then non-users would have spoken up, especially after they gave up some of their money to the users (through smaller contracts or after getting cut). There are codes of silence, but not when someone is taking your money. So if Bonds, McGwire, Sosa and A-Rod don’t get in, then neither should Thome, Griffey and Pujols. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2011, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-baseball-player-jim-thome-going-into-the-hall-of-fame-at-cooperstown-or-not/592883/27 "2011-08-16T21:14:11Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > He won’t be anywhere close to a unanimous pick, because despite his 600 homers, there are bound to be a LOT of voters who think Thome just never FELT like an all-time great. > > But yes, he’s sure to be elected. PROBABLY on the first ballot. As I mentioned in the other thread, I am pretty sure - not certain, but pretty sure - that he will not be a first ballot selection. He’ll get in but not the first time. Much of my case has already been made: 1. Thome is a great hitter but did it in an era when everyone was hitting home runs, so it’ll be a bit lost in the noise. The voters will have some trouble sifting through the vast array of power hitters, many of whom will be on the ballot with him. 2. Steroid suspicion. Fair or not, there it is. 3. Thome has few career highlights. He never came close to an MVP award, really. Few All-Star games. No World Series wins. He has led the league in home runs precisely once. 4. Thome is a hell of a player but he is not an absolutely superior player who can overcome points 1 through 3. We’re not talking about Willie Mays here. Thome is precisely the kind of player who gets shafted a bit in voting - a guy who was very good for a long time but who has few notable stars on the resume. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2011, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-baseball-player-jim-thome-going-into-the-hall-of-fame-at-cooperstown-or-not/592883/28 "2011-08-16T21:55:00Z")
> [@etv78](#): > > Thought it’s been established here that leaving Cleveland wasn’t his choice. I’ve never quite understood that. Explain, please. Here’s a nice SI profile, incidentally: [http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/tom\_verducci/08/16/jim.thome.600/index.html?hpt=hp\_t2](http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/tom_verducci/08/16/jim.thome.600/index.html?hpt=hp_t2) ---
**Author:** ![Dread\_Pirate\_Jimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dread_pirate_jimbo/32/3897_2.png) [@Dread\_Pirate\_Jimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dread_Pirate_Jimbo)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2011, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-baseball-player-jim-thome-going-into-the-hall-of-fame-at-cooperstown-or-not/592883/29 "2011-08-16T22:04:31Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > \ > 4. Thome is a hell of a player but he is not an absolutely superior player who can overcome points 1 through 3. We’re not talking about Willie Mays here. > \ Yeah, but is he better than Stan Musial? 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2011, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-baseball-player-jim-thome-going-into-the-hall-of-fame-at-cooperstown-or-not/592883/30 "2011-08-16T22:50:17Z")
Leaving Cleveland was Thome’s choice. The Indians offered him a contract after the 2002 season and he _could_ have accepted it and stayed. Thome’s decision to reject it might be considered to have worked out better for the Indians than it did for Thome. Thome of course ended up getting more money by signing with the Phillies, and he got to play for a while with a team on the rise. But injuries and a performance decline (plus Ryan Howard) made him trade material, and he was sent to the White Sox, managing to miss the World Series years both in Chicago the year before and in Philadelphia two years later. Meanwhile the Indians went through a rebuilding phase, in which paying that salary to Thome would have limited their ability to make other roster moves. The 2007 division-winning team might not have happened. Players like Hafner and Sizemore probably wouldn’t be on the team now. ---
**Author:** ![paperbackwriter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/53a042/32.png) [@paperbackwriter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/paperbackwriter)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2011, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-baseball-player-jim-thome-going-into-the-hall-of-fame-at-cooperstown-or-not/592883/31 "2011-08-17T02:53:40Z")
> [@markdash](#): > > Fortunately, I was not using that as an argument for worthiness, but rather an argument for why I did not think he would be inducted on the first ballot. Well, I can agree with that, in that a lot of Hall voters are apparently mentally stuck in 1902 and think batting average is a useful statistic and All-Star voting is reflective of greatness. Thome is a living counter-argument for both propositions. ---
**Author:** ![Jim\_s\_Son](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19adc/32.png) [@Jim\_s\_Son](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jim_s_Son)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2011, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-baseball-player-jim-thome-going-into-the-hall-of-fame-at-cooperstown-or-not/592883/32 "2011-08-17T13:38:58Z")
There is an article by baseball writer Joel Sherman calling for some perspective. Although lots of people think that Thome is clean, he came to the big leagues as a skinny third baseman, moved to first and got big and immobile as a DH. The same can be said for Jason Giambi. His two home runs were bombs to left, common to the steroid age Sherman also points out that you can make a good comparison of Thome with Fred McGriff, who is also assumed to be clean. While McGriff didn’t reach 500, he came close. He was in five allstar games and his highest finish in the mvp voting was fourth. The same can be said for McGriff. In fact McGriff had more top ten mvp finishes than Thome. Yet the highest vote total McGriff has gotten for Cooperstown is 21.5%. Thome could be elected for passing a career goal like Don Sutton did with 300 wins. But five years from now, we may not think Thome is a slam dunk first ballot hall of famer. > **[600 HRs not Hall pass for Thome](https://nypost.com/2011/08/17/600-hrs-not-hall-pass-for-thome/)** > > ( )Jim Thome launched two homers Monday night that likely carried all the way to Cooperstown, if he was not already assured of making the Hall of Fame. We have 10 fingers, which moves us to over-dr… ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2011, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-baseball-player-jim-thome-going-into-the-hall-of-fame-at-cooperstown-or-not/592883/33 "2011-08-17T13:57:33Z")
Only 8 players have hit 600. He has not offended the sports writers. He has not been caught with steroids, clear, or human growth serum. So he is in. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2011, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-baseball-player-jim-thome-going-into-the-hall-of-fame-at-cooperstown-or-not/592883/34 "2011-08-17T14:32:00Z")
> [@Jim\_s\_Son](#): > > There is an article by baseball writer Joel Sherman calling for some perspective. Although lots of people think that Thome is clean, he came to the big leagues as a skinny third baseman, moved to first and got big and immobile as a DH. The same can be said for Jason Giambi. My understanding is that he was a bad third baseman, was sent back to the minors, and refashioned himself as a slugger. He’s remained one ever since. > [@](#): > > His two home runs were bombs to left, common to the steroid age. That proves nothing. It’s just dumb. > [@](#): > > Sherman also points out that you can make a good comparison of Thome with Fred McGriff, who is also assumed to be clean. While McGriff didn’t reach 500, he came close. Thome just hit 600, though. So that’s 107 more home runs. I like McGriff and I agree he’s gotten the short end of the straw because he was never the best at his position, but he was very good for a long time. I don’t like to presume guys are clean when all I know is that weren’t caught, but it’s also true that some of the guys who were better than McGriff were using PEDs. So they are similar in that respect: they’re both good but underappreciated and not superstars. But it’s also true that Thome has 107 more homers, and he’s always been better at getting on base. They’re almost equal in plate appearances (with McGriff ahead), but Thome has about 400 more walks. He got on base more and hit for more power. So you can say they were similarly overlooked but that Thome deserves to get in and McGriff doesn’t. 107 home runs and a large lead in things like on-base percentage is likely to make a difference with voters. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2011, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-baseball-player-jim-thome-going-into-the-hall-of-fame-at-cooperstown-or-not/592883/35 "2011-08-17T14:53:14Z")
I continue to believe that Jim Thome WILL be elected to the Hall of Fame, PROBABLY on the first ballot (though he’ll probably get JUST over the 75% minimum vote needed). And he deserves it. Things can change, obviously. IF he doesn’t make it the first time out, I think there are several factors more important than steroids. 1. Jim Thome is a lot like Bert Blyleven and Don Sutton in this sense: he put up awesome career totals, but (rightly or wrongly) was NEVER widely regarded as one of the elite players, even in in his prime. 2. Depending when Thome retires, he MAY be up against someone (or multiple someones) regarded as better… which would mean he’d have to wait a year or so. 3. 600 homers just doesn’t mean as much as it used to. Twenty years ago, Hank Aaron, Babe Ruth and Willie Mays were the only guys in the 600 homer club. It’s just not so elite a club any more. Even if nobody thinks THome used steroids (and really, how the heck do we know?), the guys who DID use steroids have cheapened what used to be a milestone. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2011, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-baseball-player-jim-thome-going-into-the-hall-of-fame-at-cooperstown-or-not/592883/36 "2011-08-17T15:03:28Z")
Thumbs-up to the Sherman article, especially for the line about our having ten fingers. Reminds me of the Dilbert cartoon (published back in the 90’s) in which Dogbert said he was going to write a book predicting that the world would end in the year 2000, because big, round numbers make people nervous. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2011, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-baseball-player-jim-thome-going-into-the-hall-of-fame-at-cooperstown-or-not/592883/37 "2011-08-17T19:15:46Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > 1. Depending when Thome retires, he MAY be up against someone (or multiple someones) regarded as better… which would mean he’d have to wait a year or so. Not necessarily, since you can vote for as many as 10 guys at once. If Thome retired after this year he’d reach the ballot the same year as Manny Ramirez, which could make for some interesting discussions. > [@](#): > > 1. 600 homers just doesn’t mean as much as it used to. Yeah, but that doesn’t mean it means nothing at all. A group of only eight guys in the history of baseball is still very small. And Thome is a good hiter, not just a good home run hitter. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2011, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-baseball-player-jim-thome-going-into-the-hall-of-fame-at-cooperstown-or-not/592883/38 "2011-08-26T04:52:19Z")
Hey, Thome is now [_back_ with the Indians](http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/08/26/us-baseball-indians-thome-idUSTRE77P0OX20110826). ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2011, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-baseball-player-jim-thome-going-into-the-hall-of-fame-at-cooperstown-or-not/592883/39 "2011-08-27T15:51:05Z")
I now officially forgive him: [Jim Thome returns to Indians with sense of history, regrets - cleveland.com](http://www.cleveland.com/tribe/index.ssf/2011/08/jim_thome_returns_to_indians_w.html) ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2011, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-baseball-player-jim-thome-going-into-the-hall-of-fame-at-cooperstown-or-not/592883/40 "2011-08-27T20:37:24Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > My understanding is that he was a bad third baseman, was sent back to the minors, and refashioned himself as a slugger. He’s remained one ever since. Thome remained a third baseman for a few years after sticking in the majors for good. He was the Indians’ everyday third baseman on the 1995 and 1996 playoff teams. The bouncing back and forth between the majors and minors was largely just the Indians being stupid. Thome was a well established slugger already when he moved to first base in 1997, and he likely wouldn’t have moved as soon as he did but the Indians had a chance to get Matt Williams and jumped at it, and Williams was a very good fielder. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-baseball-player-jim-thome-going-into-the-hall-of-fame-at-cooperstown-or-not/592883.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-baseball-player-jim-thome-going-into-the-hall-of-fame-at-cooperstown-or-not/592883.md?page=3)