# Is being an atheist in Saudi Arabia, in and of itself, against the law? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [February 17, 2008, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-being-an-atheist-in-saudi-arabia-in-and-of-itself-against-the-law/438006 "2008-02-17T19:58:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2008, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-being-an-atheist-in-saudi-arabia-in-and-of-itself-against-the-law/438006/1 "2008-02-17T19:58:15Z")
Just curious. Let’s say you’re a Saudi citizen and a supposed friend you had confided in tattles to the authorities that you are privately an atheist, Will they come after you if you don’t go to prayers, or leave you alone if you are mostly a quiet, non-advertising atheist? ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2008, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-being-an-atheist-in-saudi-arabia-in-and-of-itself-against-the-law/438006/2 "2008-02-18T03:49:39Z")
I would imagine they would kill you. The term “kaffir” has a literal translation of pagan or athiest. It has a social translation of being such a shit-sucking scumbag that god hides his face from you. The Koran specifically says you should be killed. > [@](#): > > When you meet the unbelievers, smite their necks, then when you have made wide slaughter among them, tie fast the bonds, then set them free, either by grace or ransom, until the war lays down its burdens. - Sura 47:4 > (different translation: ) When you meet the unbelievers in the battlefield, strike off their heads, and when you have laid them low, bind your captives firmly. > > Those who are slain in the way of Allah - he will never let their deeds be lost. Soon will he guide them and improve their condition, and admit them to the Garden, which he has announced for them. - 47:5 > > Muslims are harsh against the unbelievers, merciful to one another. - 48:25 > > Muhammad is Allah’s apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to the unbelievers but merciful to one another. Through them, Allah seeks to enrage the unbelievers. - 48:29 > > Prophet! Make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal sternly with them. Hell shall be their home, evil their fate. - 66:9 > > The unbelievers among the People of the Book and the pagans shall burn forever in the fire of hell. They are the vilest of all creatures. - 98:51 ---
**Author:** ![Tapioca\_Dextrin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Tapioca\_Dextrin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tapioca_Dextrin)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2008, 7:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-being-an-atheist-in-saudi-arabia-in-and-of-itself-against-the-law/438006/3 "2008-02-18T07:49:12Z")
[QUOTE=astro] Just curious. Let’s say you’re a Saudi citizen and a supposed friend you had confided in tattles to the authorities that you are privately an atheist, Will they come after you if you don’t go to prayers, or leave you alone if you are mostly a quiet, non-advertising atheist? [/QUOTE] First up, the [Saudi constitution is the Koran](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saudi_Arabia#Law). The Koran (as interpreted by Wahabis) prescribes the death penalty for apostasy. Next, I don’t think you understand Muslim society. It’s simply not possible to quietly avoid going to prayers. Everyone, without exception, attends the mosque. Everyone knows everyone (as a result of everyone going to the mosque). Everyone would know there was something up. Everyone, of course, includes the police. I can’t really think of a similar situation in the West. Maybe if you were a militant hardcore nudist. 100% nude 100% of the time. Folks would find PDQ that there was something “different” about you. And then there are the consequences. AFAIK, there has only been one execution carried out in Saudi for apostasy in recent times. In 1992, [Abdul-Karim Malallah](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Status_of_religious_freedom_in_Saudi_Arabia#Forced_religious_conversion) was beheaded. Interestingly, he wasn’t an atheist or a recent convert to Christianity, his crime was a refusal to convert from Shia to Sunni Islam. The fact that he was allegedly a human rights activist campaigning for improved rights for the Shia minority might have been the deciding factor in his case. The other side to “will they come after you” would be the much more likely scenario of being killed by members of your own village (or even family) as an honour killing. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2008, 10:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-being-an-atheist-in-saudi-arabia-in-and-of-itself-against-the-law/438006/4 "2008-02-18T10:58:09Z")
Are there not foreign nationals working in Saudi Arabia? If so, are any of these non-Muslims? And if so, how do they fare? ---
**Author:** ![Tyrrell\_McAllister](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tyrrell_mcallister/32/16772_2.png) [@Tyrrell\_McAllister](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tyrrell_McAllister)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2008, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-being-an-atheist-in-saudi-arabia-in-and-of-itself-against-the-law/438006/5 "2008-02-18T19:39:53Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > I would imagine they would kill you. This is GQ. Your imagination is irrelevant if you can’t back it up by citing actual Saudi policy or practice. ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2008, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-being-an-atheist-in-saudi-arabia-in-and-of-itself-against-the-law/438006/6 "2008-02-18T20:28:15Z")
[QUOTE=Tapioca Dextrin] AFAIK, there has only been one execution carried out in Saudi for apostasy in recent times. [/QUOTE] Unless I’m badly mistaken, atheism is a neither necessary nor sufficient condition for apostasy, so I’m not really sure what this data point is intended to demonstrate. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2008, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-being-an-atheist-in-saudi-arabia-in-and-of-itself-against-the-law/438006/7 "2008-02-19T02:00:43Z")
As Gorsnak wrote, apostasy and atheism are not the same thing. Apostasy is renouncing a religion. I was raised a Catholic and I don’t follow that religion anymore, so I’m an apostate Catholic - it makes no difference whether I became an atheist or a Baptist. But I was never a Muslim so I can’t be an apostate Muslim. ---
**Author:** ![CookingWithGas](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cookingwithgas/32/485_2.png) [@CookingWithGas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CookingWithGas)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2008, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-being-an-atheist-in-saudi-arabia-in-and-of-itself-against-the-law/438006/8 "2008-02-19T02:40:59Z")
[QUOTE=Mangetout] Are there not foreign nationals working in Saudi Arabia? If so, are any of these non-Muslims? And if so, how do they fare? [/QUOTE] I have talked with a few people who have worked in Saudi Arabia. Their employers operate autonomous compounds, within which they can do pretty much what they want. In one case at the oil company Aramco, they could not import alcohol but were permitted to operate a still. Inside the compound I don’t think your religion or lack thereof would matter. I do not know about foreign nationals who would move freely about. With luck, \*\*Paul in Saudi \*\* will drop by soon. ---
**Author:** ![yabob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yabob/32/2821_2.png) [@yabob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yabob)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2008, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-being-an-atheist-in-saudi-arabia-in-and-of-itself-against-the-law/438006/9 "2008-02-19T03:39:08Z")
[QUOTE=Little Nemo] As Gorsnak wrote, apostasy and atheism are not the same thing. Apostasy is renouncing a religion. I was raised a Catholic and I don’t follow that religion anymore, so I’m an apostate Catholic - it makes no difference whether I became an atheist or a Baptist. But I was never a Muslim so I can’t be an apostate Muslim. [/QUOTE] But he said Saudi citizen. Saudi citizens must, by law, be Muslim. So for a Saudi citizen to profess atheism IS to commit apostasy. From the US State Dept report, 2004: > [@](#): > > The country is ruled by a monarchy with a legal system based on Islamic law (Shari’a). The Government does not provide legal protection for freedom of religion, and such protection does not exist in practice. Islam is the official religion, and the law requires that all citizens be Muslims. The Government prohibits the public practice of non-Muslim religions. The Government recognizes the right of non-Muslims to worship in private; however, it does not always respect this right in practice and does not define this right in law. I presume that you must convert to Islam to have any chance of obtaining Saudi citizenship, and natural born Saudi citizens would be Muslim at birth. ---
**Author:** ![eenerms](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/cdc98d/32.png) [@eenerms](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eenerms)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2008, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-being-an-atheist-in-saudi-arabia-in-and-of-itself-against-the-law/438006/10 "2008-02-19T03:45:22Z")
11 years with Aramco checking in here. The compounds NOW are multicultural, that is they are not totally western in their make up. We had Saudi, Sudanese, Eygptians and other Arabs on ours. Owning and operating a still is strickly forbidden and you face servere penalties for having one on the compound. I am not saying that there weren’t some on the compounds but nothing compared to the hayday, before the 1980’s. Concerning religion, Aramco hires ‘special teachers’ that are ministers and priests, there were told to preach only on the compounds and to Aramcons. The services were held in a secure site on Fridays. It was looked down upon to invite ‘outsiders’ to the services and security wouldn’t allow them on the compound. Under NO circumstances where the "special teachers’ to convert Muslims. Things really have changes since the suicide bombing at the Abqaiq (KSA)Plants in 2006 regarding who gets on these compounds. Speaking to some Saudi workers, there are spies in the community who would report if you didn’t go to the mosque. ---
**Author:** ![Schnitte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/schnitte/32/9033_2.png) [@Schnitte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Schnitte)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2008, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-being-an-atheist-in-saudi-arabia-in-and-of-itself-against-the-law/438006/11 "2008-02-19T12:21:12Z")
I’m not familiar with actual practice in Saudi Arabia, but traditional Islamic Law allows non-Muslims to live among a Muslim community as [dhimmi](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhimmi). It’s not the same status as a full citizen, but it confers upon the dhimmi certain rights and the protection of the Islamic state in return for the payment of taxes and obedience to the Muslim rule. ---
**Author:** ![Jolly\_Roger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/91b2a8/32.png) [@Jolly\_Roger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jolly_Roger)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2008, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-being-an-atheist-in-saudi-arabia-in-and-of-itself-against-the-law/438006/12 "2008-02-19T13:39:52Z")
[QUOTE=Tapioca Dextrin] First up, the [Saudi constitution is the Koran](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saudi_Arabia#Law). The Koran (as interpreted by Wahabis) prescribes the death penalty for apostasy. Next, I don’t think you understand Muslim society. It’s simply not possible to quietly avoid going to prayers. Everyone, without exception, attends the mosque. Everyone knows everyone (as a result of everyone going to the mosque). Everyone would know there was something up. Everyone, of course, includes the police. I can’t really think of a similar situation in the West. Maybe if you were a militant hardcore nudist. 100% nude 100% of the time. Folks would find PDQ that there was something “different” about you. And then there are the consequences. AFAIK, there has only been one execution carried out in Saudi for apostasy in recent times. In 1992, [Abdul-Karim Malallah](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Status_of_religious_freedom_in_Saudi_Arabia#Forced_religious_conversion) was beheaded. Interestingly, he wasn’t an atheist or a recent convert to Christianity, his crime was a refusal to convert from Shia to Sunni Islam. The fact that he was allegedly a human rights activist campaigning for improved rights for the Shia minority might have been the deciding factor in his case. The other side to “will they come after you” would be the much more likely scenario of being killed by members of your own village (or even family) as an honour killing. [/QUOTE] Other than the obvious benefits of employment why would any non-Saudi want to live in such a place? I don’t care if the Saudis are allies or not, living in their country sounds like a nightmare to me. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2008, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-being-an-atheist-in-saudi-arabia-in-and-of-itself-against-the-law/438006/13 "2008-02-19T13:46:34Z")
Here I am. As stated turning away from Islam is punishable by death. On the other hand I know a guy who reverted to Islam to get married and then came back (freshly divorced) as a Christian. On the visa application and the arrival card, they ask you your religion. Atheists are not allowed in (so say the guide book). In the Good Old Days, you had to show a baptism certificate to get a visa. In any case, no organized religion (other than Islam) is allowed here. Still we are mostly left alone to do as we wish. Nightmare? Anywhere a man can live, a man can live well. Does any of that help? ---
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2008, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-being-an-atheist-in-saudi-arabia-in-and-of-itself-against-the-law/438006/14 "2008-02-19T13:46:49Z")
[QUOTE=CookingWithGas] I have talked with a few people who have worked in Saudi Arabia. Their employers operate autonomous compounds, within which they can do pretty much what they want. [/QUOTE] English teachers there typically live in compounds, too. The pay is really good, but who wants to live in a compound? And the students tend to be spoiled brats. I wonder what would happen to someone who goes outside of their compound and prayer time occurs. Do they have to pretend to “pray.” ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2008, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-being-an-atheist-in-saudi-arabia-in-and-of-itself-against-the-law/438006/15 "2008-02-19T13:54:17Z")
Nope, we pretend to window shop. Sometimes we bang on the doors and demand to be let in. Sometimes we laugh at the Filipino staff who are laughing at us from inside. Also, in furtherance of my previous comments … The law in Saudi Arabia is most often not written down. The law is more or less what the policeman or judge says it is. Also you have to understand, Islam is the state religion here. When I ask my friends about this they insist if you are an apostate you lose your Saudi citizenship. I am not saying that is true, but that is what they tell me.