# Is being gay going against natural laws? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 6, 2011, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-being-gay-going-against-natural-laws/570440 "2011-02-06T21:51:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2011, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-being-gay-going-against-natural-laws/570440/61 "2011-02-08T04:28:32Z")
Also, Santa Claus was your parents. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Rokman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e36b37/32.png) [@Rokman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rokman)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2011, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-being-gay-going-against-natural-laws/570440/62 "2011-02-08T04:53:15Z")
> [@Mosier](#): > > Is being a flight attendant going against natural laws? > > I just had a thought. What if everyone on the planet were flight attendants? And nobody did other work like farming, or engineering? > > Humanity would end! Isn’t that going against nature? > > I don’t have anything against flight attendants. I just wanted to point out that flight attendants = unnatural abominations. Thanks for the RIDICULOUSLY HILARIOUS post, but humanity would not end if farmers and engineers just stopped working. Thought I’d point that out. :eek: ---
**Author:** ![Rokman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e36b37/32.png) [@Rokman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rokman)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2011, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-being-gay-going-against-natural-laws/570440/63 "2011-02-08T04:56:26Z")
> [@Foggy](#): > > Then he could have worded it better. As it is writen, it sounds just like what I have often heard many time over the years as a gay man as a reason to oppose gay rights. > I have to go look up Daybreakers, to see what that means.🙂 Daybreakers is a science fiction film where 99%+ of the world’s population is vampires. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2011, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-being-gay-going-against-natural-laws/570440/64 "2011-02-08T05:19:48Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > As for why the genetic proclivity for homosexuality remains in humans, despite being apparently counter to passing on one’s genes, it’s possible that there is some nonzero proportion of non-breeders that’s optimal for society as a whole (including those parts of society that are very closely related to you), and it’s also possible that the genes related to homosexuality are also related to other traits which are more directly beneficial. It’s also possible that our gene pool is just “fragile” in that area, and that it’s very easy for mutations to accidentally lead to homosexuality, and the new mutations are cropping up as fast as the old ones are being selected against. Of course, biology and psychology are both incredibly complicated, so it’s likely that it’s a mixture of many such phenomena that leads to homosexuality. It’s also possible (and likely) that 90% of sexual leaning is taught, not inherited. As has been noted, there have been societies which encouraged mass homosexuality. That rather indicates that we can be taught to get hard off different things. Similarly, twin studies show that while there is some amount of relation between genes and shared homosexuality, it’s not particularly strong. But with the way the brain works, as data is learned, it becomes hardened and largely immutable once you reach maturity. What may have started out a learned (or chance developed) behavior can become a physical reality. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2011, 9:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-being-gay-going-against-natural-laws/570440/65 "2011-02-08T09:05:17Z")
> [@Rokman](#): > > I just had a thought, similar to the film Daybreakers, what if everyone on the planet was gay? and nobody had sex with the opposite gender. > > Humanity would end! Isn’t that sort of going against nature and our basic animal instincts? > > I’m not anti-gay or anything like that. This isn’t a troll thread. Just a simple question. If everyone were a doctor, we’d starve to death. Therefore, doctors “go against nature,” right? ---
**Author:** ![Rokman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e36b37/32.png) [@Rokman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rokman)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2011, 10:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-being-gay-going-against-natural-laws/570440/66 "2011-02-08T10:35:40Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > If everyone were a doctor, we’d starve to death. Therefore, doctors “go against nature,” right? Doctor’s don’t know how to kill an animal and cook it? What the hell kind of universe do you live in? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2011, 10:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-being-gay-going-against-natural-laws/570440/67 "2011-02-08T10:41:11Z")
You only have to be straight twice in your life to ensure humanity’s survival (i.e. by having two children to ensure population replacement). The rest of the time, you may as well be as gay as French horn. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2011, 10:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-being-gay-going-against-natural-laws/570440/68 "2011-02-08T10:57:17Z")
> [@Rokman](#): > > Doctor’s don’t know how to kill an animal and cook it? What the hell kind of universe do you live in? 😕 Gays don’t know how to have heterosexual sex? What the hell kind of universe do YOU live in? :amused: ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2011, 11:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-being-gay-going-against-natural-laws/570440/69 "2011-02-08T11:26:16Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > And this is completely false. > > The notion that homosexuality is some sort of natural response to overpopulation is simply ridiculous. How could such a natural mechanism become established? > > Because if there were a gene that caused homosexuality in overcrowded conditions, that gene wouldn’t get passed on to future generations, would it? In that overcrowded empire, some people turn to homosexuality and don’t reproduce. And the people who do reproduce are those that don’t turn to homosexuality. And so which genes are going to be overrepresented in the surviving population? > > A gene that, for the health of the overall population, causes the carrier to not reproduce, can’t persist. It will be selected out. Several flaws with that argument. First, you are presuming that the genes in question belong to the homosexual and not, say, the mother; it’s an interesting statistic that the more sons a woman has the more likely they are to be homosexual. There’s also the problem that there are any number of species with non-breeding subgroups, hive insects prominently so. If you were right that wouldn’t be possible. You are also ignoring kin selection; if “gay genes” produce someone who doesn’t spend resources on their own offspring but ensures that their siblings and nieces/nephews reach adulthood and breed, they can be successful in Darwinian terms without personally breeding because they are helping people breed who have most of the same genes they have. ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2011, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-being-gay-going-against-natural-laws/570440/70 "2011-02-08T13:55:55Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > Even among identical twins, if one twin is gay the other twin is only 50% likely to be gay. You could clone RuPaul, Richard Simmons and Nathan Lane, and the resulting babies wouldn’t always turn out gay. Nitpick, but I think you mean “clone RuPaul, Richard Simmons or Nathan Lane…”. Because if you did and to clone all 3 of them into one baby, then always … gay as a goose! ---
**Author:** ![Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a183cd/32.png) [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barkis_is_Willin)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2011, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-being-gay-going-against-natural-laws/570440/71 "2011-02-08T15:33:18Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > …it’s an interesting statistic that the more sons a woman has the more likely they are to be homosexual. According to birth order statistics, every older brother a male has makes him 33% more likely to be homesexual. I’m not sure what kind of natural reason would exist for this phenomina. Anecdote: Someone with whom I once discussed this statistic believes this has something to do with development during infancy/toddler stages. This person is not a scientist, but he has a gay brother and 3 gay nephews - all the youngest child in a family with at least 2 older brothers. Interesting he would point to a social explanation rather than a genetic one. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2011, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-being-gay-going-against-natural-laws/570440/72 "2011-02-08T15:38:51Z")
> [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](#): > > I’m not sure what kind of natural reason would exist for this phenomina. The fetuses get exposed to different hormone levels in utero. ---
**Author:** ![outlierrn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/outlierrn/32/3005_2.png) [@outlierrn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/outlierrn)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2011, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-being-gay-going-against-natural-laws/570440/73 "2011-02-08T18:32:40Z")
> [@t-bonham@scc.net](#): > > Nitpick, but I think you mean “clone RuPaul, Richard Simmons or Nathan Lane…”. > Because if you did and to clone all 3 of them into one baby, then always … gay as a goose! Wait, RuPaul is still gay? Does that mean True Directions doesn’t work? I’m shocked! Shocked I tell you! ---
**Author:** ![Rokman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e36b37/32.png) [@Rokman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rokman)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2011, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-being-gay-going-against-natural-laws/570440/74 "2011-02-08T19:50:49Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Gays don’t know how to have heterosexual sex? What the hell kind of universe do YOU live in? :amused: I thought sexual preference wasn’t a choice? It’s not like a homosexual male can _chose_ to get an erection with the opposite sex. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Beadalin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3be4f8/32.png) [@Beadalin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beadalin)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2011, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-being-gay-going-against-natural-laws/570440/75 "2011-02-08T19:59:14Z")
> [@Rokman](#): > > I thought sexual preference wasn’t a choice? It’s not like a homosexual male can _chose_ to get an erection with the opposite sex. > > :dubious: Assuming this post is sincere (which is a huge assumption), yes, a homosexual man can absolutely sustain an erection and have an orgasm with a woman. This is possible for a whole host of reasons, including the fact that sexuality is more of a continuum than a strict either/or, and that the man can think about men while fucking a woman, in much the same way that a man can think about other women while fucking one particular one. Our minds are marvelous that way. Dan Savage, gay advice columnist, has described his heterosexual encounters. Marriages have ended when one or the other of the spouses comes out of the closet. Often those marriages have produced children. I’m friends with two women who each had children with their husbands before falling in love with one another. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2011, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-being-gay-going-against-natural-laws/570440/76 "2011-02-08T20:02:53Z")
> [@Rokman](#): > > I thought sexual preference wasn’t a choice? It’s not like a homosexual male can _chose_ to get an erection with the opposite sex. > > :dubious: There have probably been millions of children fathered by gay men and/or birthed by gay women. Is it your assumption that they were all faking it? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2011, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-being-gay-going-against-natural-laws/570440/77 "2011-02-08T20:41:08Z")
> [@Rokman](#): > > I thought sexual preference wasn’t a choice? _Preference_ is not a choice. _Behavior_ is a choice. ---
**Author:** ![Rokman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e36b37/32.png) [@Rokman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rokman)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2011, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-being-gay-going-against-natural-laws/570440/78 "2011-02-08T20:41:59Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > There have probably been millions of children fathered by gay men and/or birthed by gay women. > > Is it your assumption that they were all faking it? So you’re saying homosexuality IS a choice? Because if homosexuals can be aroused by the opposite sex, then it is a choice… The situations where a gay man has fathered a child is usually when the person isn’t “out of the closet” or whatever. But in this hypothetical, everyone is already gay, not on the fence. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2011, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-being-gay-going-against-natural-laws/570440/79 "2011-02-08T20:45:48Z")
I’m saying that you’re being entirely disengenuous and a little bit ridiculous. A homosexual person has not made a choice to be homosexual. Much as you did not make a choice to be heterosexual. The choice, as Marley pointed out and you ignored, is in the behavior. But that’s beside the point because you seem to be married to your hypothetical which is, in itself, retarded. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2011, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-being-gay-going-against-natural-laws/570440/80 "2011-02-08T20:47:12Z")
> [@Rokman](#): > > Because if homosexuals can be aroused by the opposite sex, then it is a choice… No, you’re just making some assumptions here. You can’t choose your sexual orientation. You can choose who you have sex with. **Beadalin** already explained how it’s possible to have sex with someone of the ‘wrong’ orientation, and plenty of people (not me, luckily) know firsthand it’s possible to have sex with someone you’re not actually attracted to. For one thing, they have this stuff called alcohol… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-being-gay-going-against-natural-laws/570440.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-being-gay-going-against-natural-laws/570440.md?page=5)