# Is Bergdahl being swiftboated? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 2, 2014, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bergdahl-being-swiftboated/689840 "2014-06-02T15:34:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2014, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bergdahl-being-swiftboated/689840/261 "2014-06-04T17:49:04Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > I don’t understand this question. The court martial is the method by which the army determines if a soldier has deserted. If they haven’t had a court martial, then they haven’t determined anything yet. Nitpick. Ok. Let’s say the army investigation has determined that the man has left a note saying “I desert”, left a video saying the same thing, with a thumbprint on the note to make sure it was him, and has been seen, according to multiple sources, aiding the enemy. No court martial is possible, since they don’t have him in custody. In that situation, do you “leave the man behind” or do you trade several high ranking enemy combatants to get him back? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2014, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bergdahl-being-swiftboated/689840/262 "2014-06-04T17:49:17Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > Did **ElvisL1ves** leave you a note explaining his answer? CV is curriculum vitae. That means resume, like for a job application. A listing of what one has accomplished in their career. He didn’t have to explain it. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2014, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bergdahl-being-swiftboated/689840/263 "2014-06-04T17:51:29Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Nitpick. Ok. Let’s say the army investigation has determined that the man has left a note saying “I desert”, left a video saying the same thing, with a thumbprint on the note to make sure it was him, and has been seen, according to multiple sources, aiding the enemy. No court martial is possible, since they don’t have him in custody. So a note was found that says “I desert” – how do they know he wrote it? For the video – how do they know he wasn’t under duress? Aiding the enemy (and I guess you don’t mean fighting with them) – how do you know he wasn’t under duress? How do they even know for sure that it’s him? These questions are why courts and court-martials exist… because it’s not possible to prove beyond a reasonable doubt a crime like desertion (or even treason) without them. ---
**Author:** ![slash2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@slash2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slash2k)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2014, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bergdahl-being-swiftboated/689840/264 "2014-06-04T17:52:18Z")
> [@Xema](#): > > Is there any evidence to counter the belief that there was a note, that Bergdahl wrote? The NYTimes (among many others) seems quite convinced of this. > > The people who read it know what it said, and have disclosed its contents to others. His fellow soldiers seem to know about it, and it has informed their view of the situation. > > Really, it seems remarkably lame to take the position that there may have been no note, or that someone else wrote it, or that no one knows what it said. Is anyone but you embracing this position? > > You have my promise that I’ll formally apologize and call you stunningly incisive if the note proves to have been a fake. No, the NYTimes says that a senior military official says there was a note. The reporter is very careful to phrase it as “this source says this happened.” That’s a pretty far cry from the paper itself being convinced. See the difference? How did his fellow soldiers find out about the note? If the note was passed around by dozens or hundreds of people, any possible chain of custody is probably lost; if the contents of the note trace back to only one or two who saw it, then you are basing your interpretations on the word of some soldier unknown to you. This is also called “rumor.” There may very well be a note, it may say what we’re told it says, and it may have been intended to say what we’re told it says. Those are all points to be addressed in a court of law, according to the rules of evidence. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2014, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bergdahl-being-swiftboated/689840/265 "2014-06-04T17:56:10Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > So a note was found that says “I desert” – how do they know he wrote it? The thumbprint on it. > [@](#): > > For the video – how do they know he wasn’t under duress? He pans around the room to show there is no one around. > [@](#): > > Aiding the enemy (and I guess you don’t mean fighting with them) – how do you know he wasn’t under duress? How do they even know for sure that it’s him? They don’t know it. But let’s say he was seen giving a class on how to make IED detonators out of cell phones. > [@](#): > > These questions are why courts and court-martials exist… because it’s not possible to prove beyond a reasonable doubt a crime like desertion (or even treason) without them. So what is your answer? Under the theoretical - the man has left a note saying “I desert”, left a video saying the same thing, with a thumbprint on the note to make sure it was him, and has been seen, according to multiple sources, aiding the enemy - do you make the exchange for five high level enemy combatants or do you not? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2014, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bergdahl-being-swiftboated/689840/266 "2014-06-04T18:01:08Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > The thumbprint on it. How do we know he wasn’t under duress when he wrote it? > [@](#): > > He pans around the room to show there is no one around. How do we know there wasn’t a sniper on him, or this wasn’t a camera trick? > [@](#): > > They don’t know it. But let’s say he was seen giving a class on how to make IED detonators out of cell phones. How do we know he wasn’t under duress on this class? Hell, how do we know it was really him and not someone who looks like him? How has he responded to these charges and allegations? > [@](#): > > So what is your answer? Under the theoretical - the man has left a note saying “I desert”, left a video saying the same thing, with a thumbprint on the note to make sure it was him, and has been seen, according to multiple sources, aiding the enemy - do you make the exchange for five high level enemy combatants or do you not? So far, you’re describing a US soldier who is alleged to have deserted, though (I suppose) he was captured before the 30 day desertion requirement. Because there’s no way to know beyond a reasonable doubt what happened without a trial or court martial, from what you’re describing, my duty and commitment to my fellow servicemembers requires that I value this servicemember to the same degree as any other. I have no other choice, just like General Dempsey: “the questions about this particular soldier’s conduct are separate from our effort to recover ANY U.S. service member in enemy captivity.” ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2014, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bergdahl-being-swiftboated/689840/267 "2014-06-04T18:03:43Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > So what is your answer? Under the theoretical - the man has left a note saying “I desert”, left a video saying the same thing, with a thumbprint on the note to make sure it was him, and has been seen, according to multiple sources, aiding the enemy - do you make the exchange for five high level enemy combatants or do you not? Maybe you could extrapolate your “aiding the enemy” so we can appreciate all the nuances of this well-crafted fantasy gotcha. You already said he’s not shooting. Is he making them breakfast? Explaining the in-jokes on American TV sitcoms? Teaching them how to twerk? ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2014, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bergdahl-being-swiftboated/689840/268 "2014-06-04T18:08:29Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > No doubt one of the congressional committees investigating All Things Bergdahl will come up with the answer for you. They would have to ask you and then rely the answer to me. \*but that could take years and cost millions of lives. - Otter (Animal House)\* ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2014, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bergdahl-being-swiftboated/689840/269 "2014-06-04T18:10:38Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > CV is curriculum vitae. That means resume, like for a job application. A listing of what one has accomplished in their career. He didn’t have to explain it. Apparently he does. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2014, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bergdahl-being-swiftboated/689840/270 "2014-06-04T18:12:24Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > Apparently he does. Huh? Is CV some obscure terminology? Another indecipherable post. ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2014, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bergdahl-being-swiftboated/689840/271 "2014-06-04T18:20:42Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I’m just amazed that some people think stories about reports about a soldier saying there was a note is enough to _not value this soldier enough to try and get him freed from enemy captivity_. Who here has said there should be no attempt to try and get him freed from enemy captivity? I certainly haven’t. > [@](#): > > You honestly think stories and reports about what soldiers are saying about this guy is enough that we should have valued him less? I thing that when rescue attempts and prisoner swaps are considered, relative value does indeed become relevant. And that determination should clearly be based on the best available evidence. An army that says “We have no right to consider the likely cost of retrieving a captured soldier” is likely to find itself in deep trouble. It could easily lose other soldiers with this attitude. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2014, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bergdahl-being-swiftboated/689840/272 "2014-06-04T18:24:04Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Because there’s no way to know beyond a reasonable doubt what happened without a trial or court martial, from what you’re describing, my duty and commitment to my fellow servicemembers requires that I value this servicemember to the same degree as any other. > > I have no other choice, just like General Dempsey: “the questions about this particular soldier’s conduct are separate from our effort to recover ANY U.S. service member in enemy captivity.” Well, my opinion differs. If someone leaves, leaving behind a note saying “I desert”, left a video saying the same thing, with a thumbprint on the note to make sure it was him, and has been seen, according to multiple sources, aiding the enemy, then he is not my “fellow servicemember” anymore. He removed himself from being one. And there would be no obligation to “get him back”. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2014, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bergdahl-being-swiftboated/689840/273 "2014-06-04T18:25:03Z")
> [@Xema](#): > > Who here has said there should be no attempt to try and get him freed from enemy captivity? I certainly haven’t. You’ve said that he less valuable because of these allegations and supposed note. > [@](#): > > I thing that when rescue attempts and prisoner swaps are considered, relative value does indeed become relevant. And that determination should clearly be based on the best available evidence. Such value is not and should not be based on allegations of desertion and supposed notes left behind. Thankfully. > [@](#): > > An army that says “We have no right to consider the likely cost of retrieving a captured soldier” is likely to find itself in deep trouble. It could easily lose other soldiers with this attitude. The army doesn’t say this. The army just says that the value of all captured soldiers (assuming they haven’t been convicted of any crime) is the same. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2014, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bergdahl-being-swiftboated/689840/274 "2014-06-04T18:25:11Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > Maybe you could extrapolate your “aiding the enemy” so we can appreciate all the nuances of this well-crafted fantasy gotcha. > > You already said he’s not shooting. Is he making them breakfast? Explaining the in-jokes on American TV sitcoms? Teaching them how to twerk? In the theoretical, he’s been seen, according to multiple sources, teaching them how to make IED detonators out of cell phones. So - what is your answer then? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2014, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bergdahl-being-swiftboated/689840/275 "2014-06-04T18:26:22Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Well, my opinion differs. If someone leaves, leaving behind a note saying “I desert”, left a video saying the same thing, with a thumbprint on the note to make sure it was him, and has been seen, according to multiple sources, aiding the enemy, then he is not my “fellow servicemember” anymore. He removed himself from being one. And there would be no obligation to “get him back”. You didn’t describe someone who has done all these things – you described evidence that might support this, but not beyond a reasonable doubt as per a trial/court martial. Since reasonable doubt still exists, and cannot be extinguished without a trial/court martial, I have no choice. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2014, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bergdahl-being-swiftboated/689840/276 "2014-06-04T18:27:48Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Well, my opinion differs. If someone leaves, leaving behind a note saying “I desert”, left a video saying the same thing, with a thumbprint on the note to make sure it was him, and has been seen, according to multiple sources, aiding the enemy, then he is not my “fellow servicemember” anymore. He removed himself from being one. And there would be no obligation to “get him back”. Due process, innocent until proven guilty, and right to face accusers be damned huh? Somehow I think you would expect better from your government if it was you. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2014, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bergdahl-being-swiftboated/689840/277 "2014-06-04T18:28:56Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > You didn’t describe someone who has done all these things – you described evidence that might support this, but not beyond a reasonable doubt as per a trial/court martial. > > Since reasonable doubt still exists, and cannot be extinguished without a trial/court martial, I have no choice. That’s about as casuistic as it gets, since there can be no court martial until the man is back. So no matter how “beyond reasonable doubt” the evidence is, you would trade high-placed enemy combatants for him. That’s just perverse. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2014, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bergdahl-being-swiftboated/689840/278 "2014-06-04T18:29:02Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Huh? Is CV some obscure terminology? > > Another indecipherable post. Calorific Value Cape Verde Cardio Vascular Coefficient of Variation Commercial Vehicle Component Version Composite Video Computer Video Computer Virus Constant Velocity Control Voltage Convertible Critical Value Cross Validation Crown Victoria Current Value Curricula Vitae Curriculum Vitae Customer Value I was asking for a clarification. From **ElvisL1ves**. Thanks for trying to help. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2014, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bergdahl-being-swiftboated/689840/279 "2014-06-04T18:31:23Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > That’s about as casuistic as it gets, since there can be no court martial until the man is back. So no matter how “beyond reasonable doubt” the evidence is, you would trade high-placed enemy combatants for him. That’s just perverse. No, tossing out every bedrock principal of the American justice system is what is perverse. How would you want to be treated if it was you held captive overseas and your government had no interest in hearing your side of the story and instead they just leave you to rot and die over something you were alleged to have done. There is a perverse side to this debate, but it is your side. Clearly. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2014, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bergdahl-being-swiftboated/689840/280 "2014-06-04T18:32:18Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > Calorific Value > Cape Verde > Cardio Vascular > Coefficient of Variation > Commercial Vehicle > Component Version > Composite Video > Computer Video > Computer Virus > Constant Velocity > Control Voltage > Convertible > Critical Value > Cross Validation > Crown Victoria > Current Value > Curricula Vitae > Curriculum Vitae > Customer Value > > I was asking for a clarification. From **ElvisL1ves**. Thanks for trying to help. I was actually trying to help. And only one of those fits into how he was using it. Friend, this was not hard – it is a very common acronym, used exactly as it usually is. There is no mystery here. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bergdahl-being-swiftboated/689840.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bergdahl-being-swiftboated/689840.md?page=15)