# Is Bergdahl being swiftboated? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 2, 2014, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bergdahl-being-swiftboated/689840 "2014-06-02T15:34:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2014, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bergdahl-being-swiftboated/689840/281 "2014-06-04T18:33:10Z")
I continue to be surprised at a recurring theme in this thread: that the rules and process by which the military makes decisions should resemble that used in a court of law. This notion is wildly at variance with my military experience. I don’t see how a philosophy of “We’re not allowed to take action until all facts in question have been proved beyond reasonable doubt” could possibly be workable for a navy ship or an army company. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2014, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bergdahl-being-swiftboated/689840/282 "2014-06-04T18:34:00Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > That’s about as casuistic as it gets, since there can be no court martial until the man is back. So no matter how “beyond reasonable doubt” the evidence is, you would trade high-placed enemy combatants for him. That’s just perverse. The evidence you describe is not “beyond reasonable doubt”, least because he has had no chance to respond. Perhaps it’s very close to beyond a reasonable doubt, but I’d still have questions which couldn’t be answered without a trial or court-martial. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2014, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bergdahl-being-swiftboated/689840/283 "2014-06-04T18:36:00Z")
> [@Xema](#): > > I continue to be surprised at a recurring theme in this thread: that the rules and process by which the military makes decisions should resemble that used in a court of law. This notion is wildly at variance with my military experience. > > I don’t see how a philosophy of “We’re not allowed to take action until all facts in question have been proved beyond reasonable doubt” could possibly be workable for a navy ship or an army company. Of course the military takes action. But in this specific case, with a soldier captive of the enemy, the oath I took when I was in the Navy, my duty, and the commitment I made require that I treat him just like any other soldier. If you were in the military, I’m seriously surprised if you think we would value a captive of the enemy any less just because of allegations and a supposed note. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2014, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bergdahl-being-swiftboated/689840/284 "2014-06-04T18:36:09Z")
> [@Xema](#): > > I continue to be surprised at a recurring theme in this thread: that the rules and process by which the military makes decisions should resemble that used in a court of law. This notion is wildly at variance with my military experience. > > I don’t see how a philosophy of “We’re not allowed to take action until all facts in question have been proved beyond reasonable doubt” could possibly be workable for a navy ship or an army company. Just because a soldier is located overseas does not mean that they are no longer an American citizen right? Or are you claiming that being on assignment away from the US means that you lose your rights as a citizen? You can’t be claiming that can you? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2014, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bergdahl-being-swiftboated/689840/285 "2014-06-04T18:36:52Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > So no matter how “beyond reasonable doubt” the evidence is, you would trade high-placed enemy combatants for him. That’s just perverse. Whatever he’s done or not done, he’s one of us. That help any? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2014, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bergdahl-being-swiftboated/689840/286 "2014-06-04T18:57:26Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > No, tossing out every bedrock principal of the American justice system is what is perverse. How would you want to be treated if it was you held captive overseas and your government had no interest in hearing your side of the story and instead they just leave you to rot and die over something you were alleged to have done. There is a perverse side to this debate, but it is your side. Clearly. Again, if I did what the man in the hypothetical I presented did, I would definitely not expect my government to do anything else but leave me to rot and die. It’s would be a perversion of “justice” to expend other soldiers’ lives or to release high level enemy commanders for someone like that. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2014, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bergdahl-being-swiftboated/689840/287 "2014-06-04T18:58:54Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > The evidence you describe is not “beyond reasonable doubt”, least because he has had no chance to respond. Perhaps it’s very close to beyond a reasonable doubt, but I’d still have questions which couldn’t be answered without a trial or court-martial. The man in the hypothetical removed himself from the reach of court-martial, and gave up the “chance to respond”. Claiming that because of that, he is still “one of us” is as I said, perversion of the code of honor. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2014, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bergdahl-being-swiftboated/689840/288 "2014-06-04T18:59:54Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Again, if I did what the man in the hypothetical I presented did What you presented did not suggest he was guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2014, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bergdahl-being-swiftboated/689840/289 "2014-06-04T19:00:55Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > The man in the hypothetical removed himself from the reach of court-martial, and gave up the “chance to respond”. Says you, but the hypothetical evidence you offered does not suggest this beyond a reasonable doubt. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2014, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bergdahl-being-swiftboated/689840/290 "2014-06-04T19:01:56Z")
The evidence you suggested is more than enough to indict, I believe, and your hypothetical soldier should definitely be tried/court-martialed. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2014, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bergdahl-being-swiftboated/689840/291 "2014-06-04T19:07:37Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > The man in the hypothetical removed himself from the reach of court-martial, and gave up the “chance to respond”. Claiming that because of that, he is still “one of us” is as I said, perversion of the code of honor. Its perverse to suggest that our soldiers should be stripped of their American civil rights simply because they have been accused of something. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2014, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bergdahl-being-swiftboated/689840/292 "2014-06-04T19:09:46Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > The evidence you suggested is more than enough to indict, I believe, and your hypothetical soldier should definitely be tried/court-martialed. Not until he is returned. So the question is, someone against whom the weight of evidence of desertion/treason is THIS high, do you expend soldiers’ lives, military effort and/or release high ranking military combatants in order to get him. I say no. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2014, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bergdahl-being-swiftboated/689840/293 "2014-06-04T19:11:36Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Not until he is returned. So the question is, someone against whom the weight of evidence of desertion/treason is THIS high, do you expend soldiers’ lives, military effort and/or release high ranking military combatants in order to get him. I say no. Good thing it isn’t your call then. Would you volunteer to be the one that lets the parents know that we will not be trying to save their child in your tortured hypothetical? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2014, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bergdahl-being-swiftboated/689840/294 "2014-06-04T19:13:31Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Not until he is returned. So the question is, someone against whom the weight of evidence of desertion/treason is THIS high, do you expend soldiers’ lives, military effort and/or release high ranking military combatants in order to get him. I say no. In your hypothetical, which does not provide evidence beyond reasonable doubt, I would expend the exact same effort to retrieve him as I would any other US servicemen, which is what my oath, duty, and commitment to my fellow servicemembers would have demanded. I don’t exactly have a choice. Neither does the Chairman of the JCoS, and I’m thankful that he doesn’t share your view. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2014, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bergdahl-being-swiftboated/689840/295 "2014-06-04T19:16:37Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > Good thing it isn’t your call then. Would you volunteer to be the one that lets the parents know that we will not be trying to save their child in your tortured hypothetical? If it was my task to do so, I would do so, and with no moral qualms. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2014, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bergdahl-being-swiftboated/689840/296 "2014-06-04T19:17:01Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I was actually trying to help. And only one of those fits into how he was using it. > > Friend, this was not hard – it is a very common acronym, used exactly as it usually is. There is no mystery here. Apparently there is. It’s OK to ask for a clarification to prevent misunderstanding. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2014, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bergdahl-being-swiftboated/689840/297 "2014-06-04T19:18:50Z")
Here is a retired Army officer’s take on this: [http://www.nationalreview.com/article/379481/why-team-obama-was-blindsided-bergdahl-backlash-ralph-peters](http://www.nationalreview.com/article/379481/why-team-obama-was-blindsided-bergdahl-backlash-ralph-peters) Exhibit A: Ms. Rice. In one of the most tone-deaf statements in White House history (we’re making a lot of history here), the national-security advisor, on a Sunday talk show, described Bergdahl as having served “with honor and distinction.” Those serving in uniform and those of us who served previously were already stirred up, but that jaw-dropper drove us into jihad mode. … Both President Obama and Ms. Rice seem to think that the crime of desertion in wartime is kind of like skipping class. They have no idea of how great a sin desertion in the face of the enemy is to those in our military. The only worse sin is to side actively with the enemy and kill your brothers in arms. This is not sleeping in on Monday morning and ducking Gender Studies 101. But compassion, please! The president and all the president’s men and women are not alone. Our media elite — where it’s a rare bird who bothered to serve in uniform — instantly became experts on military justice. Of earnest mien and blithe assumption, one talking head after another announced that “we always try to rescue our troops, even deserters.” Uh, no. “Save the deserter” is a recent battle cry of the politically indoctrinated brass. For much of our history, we did make some efforts to track down deserters in wartime. Then we shot or hanged them. Or, if we were in good spirits, we merely used a branding iron to burn a large D into their cheeks or foreheads. Even as we grew more enlightened, desertion brought serious time in a military prison. At hard labor. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2014, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bergdahl-being-swiftboated/689840/298 "2014-06-04T19:21:19Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > If it was my task to do so, I would do so, and with no moral qualms. No moral qualms, or no morals period? How would you expect the parents to react? How would your parents react if it was you? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2014, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bergdahl-being-swiftboated/689840/299 "2014-06-04T19:24:54Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > No moral qualms, or no morals period? > > How would you expect the parents to react? How would your parents react if it was you? My parents would stand behind me no matter what. That is what parents are supposed to do. They would do so even if I was the worst kind of traitor or a serial killer. Parents’ love is unconditional. What does that have to do with whether the military and US government should expend enormous effort and pay a huge price to get back someone against whom there is overwhelming evidence that he’s a deserter and possibly a traitor? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2014, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bergdahl-being-swiftboated/689840/300 "2014-06-04T19:26:55Z")
Same reason the Royal Navy sent an entire fleet halfway around the world to find the Bounty mutineers. To bring them to justice. And because they were their own. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bergdahl-being-swiftboated/689840.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bergdahl-being-swiftboated/689840.md?page=16)