# Is Bergdahl being swiftboated? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 2, 2014, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bergdahl-being-swiftboated/689840 "2014-06-02T15:34:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2014, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bergdahl-being-swiftboated/689840/61 "2014-06-02T21:14:43Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > I disagree with this. > > A decision on whether to trade terrorists for someone is not a trial. There’s no innocent until proven guilty here. Whether it’s worthwhile for the country as a whole to sacrifice for this man’s freedom is absolutely dependent on what his history is and how he came to lose his freedom. > > That does not mean - as some strawmanners in this thread have been suggesting - that any allegations of a crime should be treated as accurate for this purpose. But the military has the ability to investigate this without the guy’s presence, and the “right to confront his accusers in court” is what’s “absolutely immaterial” to this issue. The military certainly has the ability to investigate it, and that’s fine. But such investigation should have nothing to do with any decision to try and secure his release. We’re not trying to secure his release because he’s a good guy, or because it’s ‘the right thing to do’, or for his family’s sake – we’re trying to secure his release (or we should be) _because he’s a US soldier_. That’s one of the obligations the United States makes to its soldiers (and sailors, marines, and airmen). ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2014, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bergdahl-being-swiftboated/689840/62 "2014-06-02T21:17:51Z")
I don’t believe there is (or should be) any commitment by the military that they will do whatever it takes to secure the release of any US soldiers regardless of whether they’ve deserted their units. (Frankly the idea sounds ridiculous to me, WADR.) ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2014, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bergdahl-being-swiftboated/689840/63 "2014-06-02T21:28:00Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > I don’t believe there is (or should be) any commitment by the military that they will do whatever it takes to secure the release of any US soldiers regardless of whether they’ve deserted their units. (Frankly the idea sounds ridiculous to me, WADR.) There is a commitment to secure the release of US service-people, period. Not “whatever it takes” literally, of course – we’re not going to pay a trillion dollars or trade all our prisoners for one soldier. But there’s a commitment to take reasonable and appropriate action to secure the release of US soldiers, and if they haven’t been convicted of desertion, then an accusation is not enough to eliminate the commitment to take reasonable and appropriate action to secure their release. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2014, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bergdahl-being-swiftboated/689840/64 "2014-06-02T21:31:21Z")
You’re going back to the same strawman. I explicitly said that an accusation is not enough. Then you responded that it shouldn’t even depend on the conclusions of an investigation. I disagree with this (to put it mildly). Which is fine. But please don’t then turn around and imply that I’m saying an accusation is enough. ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2014, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bergdahl-being-swiftboated/689840/65 "2014-06-02T21:52:00Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Yeah, it could mean that but I am curious to what the real answer is. Were off duty personnel allowed off base? Was he off duty? I was in Afghanistan when he was captured, and every service had their own little rules about this and that, but to the best of my knowledge nobody was allowed off base anywhere in the AOR while not on duty. I have a distant curiosity about what the story is since I spent months trolling low-and-slow over the country broadcasting messages and assisting the efforts to find him, but in the end it doesn’t really matter. The deal was made, he’s been freed, and for me it’s over. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2014, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bergdahl-being-swiftboated/689840/66 "2014-06-02T21:55:54Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > On that note, am I the only one who saw a photo of the father and assumed it was the son, and wondered why the hell he hadn’t shaved off his Taliban beard yet? You’re close. The dad grew a beard and learned Pashto in order to appeal to the Taliban. I think the family is very New-Agey. Kid was home-schooled. His sister is named “Sky”. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2014, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bergdahl-being-swiftboated/689840/67 "2014-06-02T22:10:05Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > You’re going back to the same strawman. > > I explicitly said that an accusation is not enough. Then you responded that it shouldn’t even depend on the conclusions of an investigation. I disagree with this (to put it mildly). Which is fine. But please don’t then turn around and imply that I’m saying an accusation is enough. You’re saying an accusation is enough to, at least, consider putting less value on this serviceman, with regards to the ‘price’ to get him back, right? If you’re not saying this, then I don’t understand what you’re saying. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2014, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bergdahl-being-swiftboated/689840/68 "2014-06-02T22:16:18Z")
I thought that these guys in Guantanamo were the “worst of the worst” and that if released, they would present an ongoing danger to the US? Weren’t we told this by BOTH Bush and Obama? So we release FIVE of them for one PFC? Even if he was a model soldier that is bullshit, and especially when it seems like it was his fault or he even did it deliberately, it is worth a discussion. I’ve never heard the talking point “Leave no soldier behind” in the context of releasing what have heretofore been called war criminals in exchange for individual soldiers. Never. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2014, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bergdahl-being-swiftboated/689840/69 "2014-06-03T00:33:40Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > On that note, am I the only one who saw a photo of the father and assumed it was the son, and wondered why the hell he hadn’t shaved off his Taliban beard yet? I saw his photo and wondered why the hell the Duck Dynasty guy was giving a press conference about POW exchanges. ---
**Author:** ![buddy431](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6a8cbe/32.png) [@buddy431](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buddy431)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2014, 7:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bergdahl-being-swiftboated/689840/70 "2014-06-03T07:00:39Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > I thought that these guys in Guantanamo were the “worst of the worst” and that if released, they would present an ongoing danger to the US? Weren’t we told this by BOTH Bush and Obama? > > So we release FIVE of them for one PFC? Even if he was a model soldier that is bullshit, and especially when it seems like it was his fault or he even did it deliberately, it is worth a discussion. > > I’ve never heard the talking point “Leave no soldier behind” in the context of releasing what have heretofore been called war criminals in exchange for individual soldiers. Never. These are members of the Taliban. They were formerly members of a government\* of a sovereign nation that was invaded by the United States. They were not “war criminals”, because that would mean they would have the right to a fair trial. They did not crash planes into the world trade center. The U.S. is ending its war in Afghanistan, and if there was ever a valid justification for holding these guys, it has ended. \*To be fair their government was only recognized by 3 nations, but they were the de facto government, and nations are generally given wide latitude with how to govern themselves. Even the worst despots are given a trial before being imprisoned indefinitely (looking at you Mr. Taylor) ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2014, 7:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bergdahl-being-swiftboated/689840/71 "2014-06-03T07:20:56Z")
Now the raving right is on the attack against Bergdahl, Senior. How _dare_ he learn to speak Pashtun? How _dare_ he offer up a Muslim prayer at the White House (apparently that’s made the White House a terrorist base, or something). Plus the father once said “And we’re so much like Afghanistan. I wish I could write a book about that,” he said. “Our character is a lot alike. The mountain, desert environment breeds tough people, people who know how to farm here and make a living. And it’s hard. But it makes you tough. If it doesn’t kill you, it makes you tougher. And we’re just so appreciative of the people in Idaho.” and so the right is ranting that he said “We’re so much like Afghanistan”, without including the entire quote. ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2014, 8:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bergdahl-being-swiftboated/689840/72 "2014-06-03T08:38:07Z")
> [@buddy431](#): > > These are members of the Taliban. They were formerly members of a government\* of a sovereign nation that was invaded by the United States. They were not “war criminals” Well, [some of them weren’t.](http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2646222/Taliban-leaders-given-heros-welcome-footage-claiming-prisoners-arriving-Qatar-Guantanamo-release-no-American-presence-sight.html) > [@](#): > > Human Rights Watch says Mohammad Fazl could be prosecuted for war crimes for presiding over the mass killing of Shiite Muslims in Afghanistan in 2000 and 2001 as the Taliban sought to consolidate their control over the country. ---
**Author:** ![What\_the](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f4b2a3/32.png) [@What\_the](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_the)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2014, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bergdahl-being-swiftboated/689840/73 "2014-06-03T12:31:47Z")
> [@davidm](#): > > [http://www.cnn.com/2014/06/01/us/bergdahl-deserter-or-hero/index.html?hpt=hp\_t1](http://www.cnn.com/2014/06/01/us/bergdahl-deserter-or-hero/index.html?hpt=hp_t1) > > A sudden rush to smear his name. Unnamed accusers. Conflicting accounts. Non-disclosure agreements. > > It all sounds depressingly familiar, like the right-wing smear machine is once again going into high gear. A named accuser made it on the not-so-right-wing Today Show this morning. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2014, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bergdahl-being-swiftboated/689840/74 "2014-06-03T12:43:27Z")
Some news: the [President states](http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/obama-says-he-consulted-congress-prisoner-swap) Congress had been consulted on an ongoing basis on the progress of potential prisoner swaps. ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2014, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bergdahl-being-swiftboated/689840/75 "2014-06-03T13:57:55Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > the [President states](http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/obama-says-he-consulted-congress-prisoner-swap) Congress had been consulted on an ongoing basis on the progress of potential prisoner swaps. That link also offers this article: [Mike Rodgers Disputes That Obama Consulted Congress About POW Swap](http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/mike-rodgers-disputes-obama-consulted-congress-prisoner-swap), in which the House Intelligence Committee Chair says: > [@](#): > > “I don’t know what he means by ‘consulted Congress for some time.’ In 2011, they did come up and present a plan that included a prisoner transfer that was – in a bipartisan way – pushed back.” > > “We hadn’t heard anything since on any details of any prisoner,” he added, with the exception of a “proof of life” video of Sgt. Bowe Bergdahl that the U.S. military obtained last December. > > Rodgers said he and other members of Congress were first informed of the prisoner swap after it took place Saturday morning. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2014, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bergdahl-being-swiftboated/689840/76 "2014-06-03T14:18:25Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Some news: the [President states](http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/obama-says-he-consulted-congress-prisoner-swap) Congress had been consulted on an ongoing basis on the progress of potential prisoner swaps. I don’t think there’s much doubt that the President’s action violated Sec. 1035(d) of the National Defense Appropriations Act of 2014, which provides: > [@](#): > > 1. TRANSFERS TO FOREIGN COUNTRIES OF INDIVIDUALS DETAINED AT UNITED STATES NAVAL STATION, GUANTANAMO BAY, CUBA > . > . > . > (d) NOTIFICATION.—The Secretary of Defense shall notify the appropriate committees of Congress of a determination of the Secretary under subsection (a) or (b) not later than 30 days before the transfer or release of the individual under such subsection. Each notification shall include, at a minimum, the following: > > (extensive list of required detailed elements omitted) However, I contend – as does the President – that this application of Sec. 1035 violates the separation of powers and impermissibly intrudes upon his Article II powers as the Chief Executive and Commander-in-Chief. The President also violated Sec. 8111 of the Fiscal Year 2014 Consolidated Appropriations Act, which forbids expending any funds to transfer any Guantanamo prisoners unless the requirements of Sec. 1035, above, are met. And by doing so he violated the Anti-Deficiency Act, which forbids the expenditure of any funds that exceed the existing appropriated budget – a law familar to those who recall the government shutdown last fall. However, Congress cannot compel the President to exercise, or fail to exercise, his Article II powers through spending limits in this manner. The bottom line remains as I said above: the President has the constitutionally granted role of Commander-in-Chief, a role that absolutely requires the freedom to make quick decisions in matters like this, unencumbered by Congressional restraint. I don’t believe I would have made the same decision. But (a) I don’t have access to all the information and analysis that the President has, and more importantly (b) I was not the person that received 332 electoral votes for the office of President on January 4th, 2013. The President has no obligation to obey an unconstitutional statute. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2014, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bergdahl-being-swiftboated/689840/77 "2014-06-03T14:27:39Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I don’t believe I would have made the same decision. But (a) I don’t have access to all the information and analysis that the President has Part of the problem here is that apparently no one (other than Obama’s people) have access to that information and analysis. > [@](#): > > and more importantly (b) I was not the person that received 332 electoral votes for the office of President on January 4th, 2013. For purposes of this discussion, I don’t think that’s at all important, let alone more important. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2014, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bergdahl-being-swiftboated/689840/78 "2014-06-03T14:53:29Z")
Apparently those interviews with fellow angry soldiers were arranged by [GOP operatives](http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/gop-strategists-interviews-bergdahl). Count me as unsurprised. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2014, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bergdahl-being-swiftboated/689840/79 "2014-06-03T15:36:41Z")
The similarity of names is going to cause no end of amusement for us in [the latest manufactured Hillary Scandalgate](http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/06/03/1304031/-Republicans-confuse-Bergdahl-with-Benghazi-and-demand-answers-from-Hillary?detail=hide), is there? Shall we just call it _Bergdhazi_? ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2014, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bergdahl-being-swiftboated/689840/80 "2014-06-03T16:16:47Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Are some seriously thinking that Obama should have said, “As, fuck him. Some people have accused him of desertion. Let the Taliban keep him.”? No, if he had done that then the conservatives would have portrayed this person has a true hero abandoned by his commander in chief. Its all part of the way the GOP determines policy. 1. Wait to see what Obama does 2. No matter what it is explain how that is the worst possible decision that could have been made. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bergdahl-being-swiftboated/689840.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bergdahl-being-swiftboated/689840.md?page=5)