# Is Bergdahl being swiftboated? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 2, 2014, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bergdahl-being-swiftboated/689840 "2014-06-02T15:34:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 43
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2014, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bergdahl-being-swiftboated/689840/841 "2014-06-14T23:03:15Z")
> [@slash2k](#): > > Besides, what is the alternative to hostage-taking? If the Taliban has the option of trying to kidnap American soldiers or trying to kill American soldiers, well, we can negotiate with the Taliban, but not with the afterlife. Yeah, I was going to say, if enemy combatants get the opportunity to snatch soldiers off bases in the first place, well, you do have a problem on your hands. But it’s entirely unrelated with any negotiation. And as you say, it’s also probably better for the enemy to want to snatch prisoners then try and secure exchanges, compared to the more usual (in that corner of the world) snatch followed by televised beheading. So in this instance, “negotiating with terrorists” is not a moral hazard, it’s… what’s the diametral opposite of that ? An immoral hazard ? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2014, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bergdahl-being-swiftboated/689840/842 "2014-06-14T23:16:54Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > One which operates at the sole discretion of the Executive branch, as has been explained to you. The law he broke is not at his discretion. The process he sidestepped assures the consequences are all his. > [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Strong statements to make about your President and Commander in Chief. not really. He doesn’t get a pass because he won an election. > [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > BTW, [even Fox is running the story](http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2014/06/13/bergdahl-held-in-solitary-confinement-for-2-years-officials-say/) that he was held in solitary for two years by his new “comrades”. And NBC said his life was never at risk which is what your FOX news quote was suppose to dispute but doesn’t. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2014, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bergdahl-being-swiftboated/689840/843 "2014-06-14T23:37:52Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > The law he broke is not at his discretion. The process he sidestepped assures the consequences are all his. You referred to “evaluating for risk”, remember? The law Hannity is telling you to be upset about is notification only. > [@](#): > > not really. He doesn’t get a pass because he won an election. But if you’re going to dabble in casual, uninformed sedition (and are you in the military? mutiny too), then you need to have your basic facts right. This would be a good time to start. > [@](#): > > And NBC said his life was never at risk which is what your FOX news quote was suppose to dispute but doesn’t. The reference is to \*your \*assertion that he didn’t “deserve” to be rescued. IOW, time to cut the shit, pal. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2014, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bergdahl-being-swiftboated/689840/844 "2014-06-15T00:04:02Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > You referred to “evaluating for risk”, remember? The law Hannity is telling you to be upset about is notification only. Which was not followed. The system in place to vet dangerous detainees was also not followed. Which puts all the blame for what follows on Obama. All of it. He has nobody to throw under the bus when the terrorists he released unnecessarily end up killing more people. It was a political sound bite timed for rose garden distraction to get the VA scandal off the news. > [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > But if you’re going to dabble in casual, uninformed sedition (and are you in the military? mutiny too), then you need to have your basic facts right. This would be a good time to start. the current fact is that there was no threat to bergdahl’s life. > [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > The reference is to \*your \*assertion that he didn’t “deserve” to be rescued. IOW, time to cut the shit, pal. The reference was to this statement: Obama … claimed it had to done in secrecy which was a lie. He claimed Berghahl’s life was in danger. That was a lie. So you’re either posted to the wrong thread or there is some other rational explanation for this odd response of yours. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2014, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bergdahl-being-swiftboated/689840/845 "2014-06-15T00:36:16Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > North Vietnam established the National Liberation Front in 1960 and the NLF created the Viet Cong. Er… Viet Cong, was the term used by the South Vietnamese government for the NLF and NLF supporters to rile up up the US government. It means Vietnamese Communists for those not in the know. In fact, the NLF, like the Taliban was a guerrilla army who saw themselves as being the legitimate government of South Vietnam and saw the South Vietnamese government as colonial puppets just as the Taliban see themselves as the real, legitimate government of Afghanistan and the current government as a US puppet. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2014, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bergdahl-being-swiftboated/689840/846 "2014-06-15T00:39:14Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > You didn’t answer **Ibn Warraq** ’s question. What “recognized nation state” did the NLF/VC represent? Er… The question was to you not Elucid. Also, neither I nor, Elucid claimed they represented a “recognized nation state”. Are you arguing their claim to being the legitimate representative of the South Vietnamese people was correct? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2014, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bergdahl-being-swiftboated/689840/847 "2014-06-15T00:52:02Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Er… Viet Cong, was the term used by the South Vietnamese government for the NLF and NLF supporters to rile up up the US government. > > It means Vietnamese Communists for those not in the know. > > In fact, the NLF, like the Taliban was a guerrilla army who saw themselves as being the legitimate government of South Vietnam and saw the South Vietnamese government as colonial puppets just as the Taliban see themselves as the real, legitimate government of Afghanistan and the current government as a US puppet. And did the Vietnamese export their “government” to countries nearby? They’re more ideology than government. The only thing you can compare them to is their desire to kill their own countrymen. The Vietnamese Communist government rounded up a million people for “reeducation”. Hundreds of thousands of people died in the post war apocalypse that followed. Beyond that I don’t know what point you’re trying to make. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2014, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bergdahl-being-swiftboated/689840/848 "2014-06-15T01:32:42Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Which was not followed. You don’t know that, in fact the evidence suggests otherwise. No matter what Hannity tells you. > [@](#): > > the current fact is that there was no threat to bergdahl’s life. Also not true. > [@](#): > > The reference was to this statement: Obama … claimed it had to done in secrecy which was a lie. He claimed Berghahl’s life was in danger. That was a lie. Writing that in crayon doesn’t make it true. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2014, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bergdahl-being-swiftboated/689840/849 "2014-06-15T02:36:19Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > You don’t know that, in fact the evidence suggests otherwise. No matter what Hannity tells you. Hannity doesn’t tell me anything. I’m working when his show is on the radio and I don’t get cable. I also didn’t quote him anywhere in the thread so you appear to have some odd fixation with him. Do you listen to him daily? > [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Also not true. He arrived unscathed and there was no indication otherwise as I cited. You’re response is: nuh uh. > [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Writing that in crayon doesn’t make it true. you’re the one who made a rant in response to something else. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2014, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bergdahl-being-swiftboated/689840/850 "2014-06-15T02:40:06Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > You don’t know that, in fact the evidence suggests otherwise. No matter what Hannity tells you. Hannity doesn’t tell me anything. I’m working when his show is on the radio and I don’t get cable. I also didn’t quote him anywhere in the thread so you appear to have some odd fixation with him. Do you listen to him daily? > [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Also not true. He arrived unscathed and there was no indication otherwise as I cited. You’re response is: nuh uh. > [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Writing that in crayon doesn’t make it true. you’re the one who made a rant in response to something else. I highlighted it because you seem to be having difficulty focusing on on what you’re debating. Insulting the color is the last desperate act of avoiding the fact you fucked up what you were responding to. ---
**Author:** ![slash2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@slash2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slash2k)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2014, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bergdahl-being-swiftboated/689840/851 "2014-06-15T02:55:02Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > I recall a leader operating in Afghanistan whom we supported who eventually turned on us causing the greatest attack on American soil in the 20th century. It was in the news and everything. Who was that? It wasn’t Osama bin Laden; the evidence that the CIA had any direct ties with any of the Afghan Arabs is scant to nonexistent. The Afghan Arabs had their own sources of funding back in the Gulf, while the U.S. and Pakistan (whose intelligence agency handled most of the actual disbursements) recruited from among the hundreds of thousands of Afghans (people who actually spoke the language and knew the land) who wanted to fight the Soviets. It is true that the U.S. helped funnel money and arms to Afghans who later formed the nucleus of the Taliban (and also the Northern Alliance and several of the other factions). The Al-Qaeda link, however, is absent. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2014, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bergdahl-being-swiftboated/689840/852 "2014-06-15T03:10:19Z")
> [@slash2k](#): > > Who was that? > > It wasn’t Osama bin Laden; the evidence that the CIA had any direct ties with any of the Afghan Arabs is scant to nonexistent. The Afghan Arabs had their own sources of funding back in the Gulf, while the U.S. and Pakistan (whose intelligence agency handled most of the actual disbursements) recruited from among the hundreds of thousands of Afghans (people who actually spoke the language and knew the land) who wanted to fight the Soviets. > > It is true that the U.S. helped funnel money and arms to Afghans who later formed the nucleus of the Taliban (and also the Northern Alliance and several of the other factions). The Al-Qaeda link, however, is absent. It WAS [Osama Bin Laden](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA%E2%80%93al-Qaeda_controversy). On CNN’s Larry King program he said: ``` Bandar bin Sultan: This is ironic. In the mid-'80s, if you remember, we and the United - Saudi Arabia and the United States were supporting the Mujahideen to liberate Afghanistan from the Soviets. He [Osama bin Laden] came to thank me for my efforts to bring the Americans, our friends, to help us against the atheists, he said the communists. Isn't it ironic? Larry King: How ironic. In other words, he came to thank you for helping bring America to help him. Bandar bin Sultan: Right. ``` ---
**Author:** ![slash2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@slash2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slash2k)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2014, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bergdahl-being-swiftboated/689840/853 "2014-06-15T03:48:37Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > It WAS [Osama Bin Laden](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA%E2%80%93al-Qaeda_controversy). Read the article to which you yourself link. Bin Laden himself was quoted as saying, “the US had no mentionable role” in the collapse of the Soviet Union; that was due to God and the mujahideen. Ayman al-Zawahiri (current leader of Al-Qaeda) and a whole host of Pakistani, Afghan, and American sources say the CIA had no contact or involvement with any of the Afghan Arabs (mainly because the Afghan Arabs were an unimportant sideshow in the 1980s, a disruptive force the locals didn’t want to be bothered with). ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2014, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bergdahl-being-swiftboated/689840/854 "2014-06-15T04:33:01Z")
> [@slash2k](#): > > Read the article to which you yourself link. > > Bin Laden himself was quoted as saying, “the US had no mentionable role” in the collapse of the Soviet Union; that was due to God and the mujahideen. Ayman al-Zawahiri (current leader of Al-Qaeda) and a whole host of Pakistani, Afghan, and American sources say the CIA had no contact or involvement with any of the Afghan Arabs (mainly because the Afghan Arabs were an unimportant sideshow in the 1980s, a disruptive force the locals didn’t want to be bothered with). We weren’t talking about the collapse of the Soviet Union. [The supplying of billions of dollar](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA_activities_in_Afghanistan)s in arms to the Afghan mujahideen militants was one of the CIA’s longest and most expensive covert operations. ---
**Author:** ![Lightnin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightnin/32/180_2.png) [@Lightnin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightnin)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2014, 11:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bergdahl-being-swiftboated/689840/855 "2014-06-15T11:33:10Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > Stop what? Telling people what they are allowed to think or what they are allowed to say? You can do it. Why can’t anyone else? What? Did you deliberately try to misunderstand what I said? You should go back and reread it- what I said was that the argument of “Obama’s action will make person X do action Y” is a bullshit argument, because you’re asking us to argue against some third person with an argumentative position you made up in your head. I’m not really sure how you got that I was telling you to “stop telling people what they are allowed to think or what they are allowed to say” from what I actually wrote. I swear, it’s like you’re just \*trying \*to play the victim. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2014, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bergdahl-being-swiftboated/689840/856 "2014-06-15T12:45:46Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > [The supplying of billions of dollar](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA_activities_in_Afghanistan)s in arms to the Afghan mujahideen militants was one of the CIA’s longest and most expensive covert operations. The Larry King quote you provide doesn’t actually say that UBL personally received US aid. You might as well argue that the Marshall Plan created Red Brigade terrorists in Germany. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2014, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bergdahl-being-swiftboated/689840/857 "2014-06-16T14:04:17Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Er… The question was to you not Elucid. > > Also, neither I nor, Elucid claimed they represented a “recognized nation state”. > > Are you arguing their claim to being the legitimate representative of the South Vietnamese people was correct? My position is that these 5 specific terrorist wouldn’t/shouldn’t be released until the Taliban and U.S. ceased hostilities towards each other. The NLF/VC were fighting for the nation state of North Vietnam. Prisoners were released (eventually, depending on who you talked to at that time) after hostilities between North Vietnam and the U.S. had ceased. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bergdahl-being-swiftboated/689840.md?page=42)