# Is Bergdahl being swiftboated? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 2, 2014, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bergdahl-being-swiftboated/689840 "2014-06-02T15:34:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2014, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bergdahl-being-swiftboated/689840/161 "2014-06-04T12:14:54Z")
> [@slash2k](#): > > We KNOW that it has been investigated carefully only to the extent we trust this anonymous “senior military officer.” Maybe he’s telling the truth, maybe he’s got his own axe to grind, maybe he’s accurately relaying this secret briefing, maybe he’s not. What makes you trust him absolutely? I certainly don’t trust him absolutely. I do tend to put some credence in the reporting done by the NYTimes - which is what we’re actually trusting here. To the NYT reporter, this guy is not anonymous. There seems in this thread to be a theme that only the evidence and conclusions of a court of law should be used, and that until he’s tried it’s wrong to take anything other than a blind view of his actions. But what’s the basis of this view? Where does it say that available evidence should not be considered? Military decisions - such as whether, when and how to retrieve Bergdahl - are necessarily based on incomplete evidence, but a military commander who ignores available evidence is deeply irresponsible. Likewise, although it’s clearly desirable to work for the return of a captured soldier, the decision as to what resources should be devoted to that - or in this case the number and nature of who’s offered in exchange - can and should be based on careful consideration of the best evidence available. ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2014, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bergdahl-being-swiftboated/689840/162 "2014-06-04T12:17:36Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > They refuse to celebrate the safe return of a POW out of blind hatred for Obama. An amusing assertion, characteristically unaccompanied by evidence. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2014, 12:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bergdahl-being-swiftboated/689840/163 "2014-06-04T12:22:30Z")
> [@Xema](#): > > An amusing assertion, characteristically unaccompanied by evidence. Yeppers, Cruz, Cheney and the entire Fox “News” apparatus have such a history of reacting to events on their merits with no ax to grind. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2014, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bergdahl-being-swiftboated/689840/164 "2014-06-04T12:28:02Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > And your opinion on the matter relates to the law…how again, exactly? If I were discussing the law, I would not have used the word “moral”. I would have said “legal”. > [@Rick Kitchen](#): > > Was there a trial and I missed it? No, there was an inquiry and you missed it. > [@](#): > > Where do you get the idea that the accusations were correct? From the findings of the inquiry that you missed. > [@](#): > > BTW, when Obama signed the law that every right wingnut is pointing to, he issued a signing statement that said that he thought that that provision of the law was unconstitutional, and he would not feel bound by it. So you believe that if a President expresses his disagreement with a law, he is not bound by it. I can think of someone who disagrees with that idea, or at least he used to. > [@](#): > > I will not use signing statements to nullify or undermine congressional instructions as enacted into law. The problem with this administration is that it has attached signing statements to legislation in an effort to change the meaning of the legislation, to avoid enforcing certain provisions of the legislation that the President does not like, and to raise implausible or dubious constitutional objections to the legislation. Of course the same person claimed that the President did not have the authority to detain US citizens as illegal combatants, so we can be pretty sure he was lying. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2014, 12:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bergdahl-being-swiftboated/689840/165 "2014-06-04T12:33:29Z")
> [@Xema](#): > > I certainly don’t trust him absolutely. I do tend to put some credence in the reporting done by the NYTimes - which is what we’re actually trusting here. To the NYT reporter, this guy is not anonymous. > > There seems in this thread to be a theme that only the evidence and conclusions of a court of law should be used, and that until he’s tried it’s wrong to take anything other than a blind view of his actions. But what’s the basis of this view? Where does it say that available evidence should not be considered? Because our duty and commitment to our servicemembers who have been captured by the enemy has zero relation to accusations of desertion and alleged notes left behind. If he was convicted of desertion, that would be different – but he was not, so our duty and commitment to him is exactly the same as any other servicemember captured by the enemy. > [@](#): > > Military decisions - such as whether, when and how to retrieve Bergdahl - are necessarily based on incomplete evidence, but a military commander who ignores available evidence is deeply irresponsible. Likewise, although it’s clearly desirable to work for the return of a captured soldier, the decision as to what resources should be devoted to that - or in this case the number and nature of who’s offered in exchange - can and should be based on careful consideration of the best evidence available. Evidence should not be ignored, but as to whether a soldier should be recovered and how ‘valuable’ he is, the duty and commitment to recover him has nothing to do with accusations and alleged notes about desertion. Like General Dempsey, the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff has said: “the questions about this particular soldier’s conduct are separate from our effort to recover ANY U.S. service member in enemy captivity”. Do you disagree on principle with General Dempsey? ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2014, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bergdahl-being-swiftboated/689840/166 "2014-06-04T12:36:28Z")
As much as I hate to agree with Shodan, I’m also troubled by signing statements. In my opinion if a president thinks a provision in a bill is unconstitutional, then he should veto it and note his objections. I believe a president’s options are sign it or veto it, this gray area in between with signing statements is a relatively modern phenomenon which should be discontinued. That being said, the requirement to notify Congress of proposed swaps is likely an unconstitutional limitation on the powers of the commander in chief. ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2014, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bergdahl-being-swiftboated/689840/167 "2014-06-04T13:00:11Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Yeppers, Cruz, Cheney and the entire Fox “News” apparatus have such a history of reacting to events on their merits with no ax to grind. And their behavior justifies yours? ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2014, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bergdahl-being-swiftboated/689840/168 "2014-06-04T13:04:48Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > In my opinion if a president thinks a provision in a bill is unconstitutional, then he should veto it and note his objections. Here we strongly agree. How is anyone well served if any President says: “I now sign into law a bill whose provisions I do not believe are valid and which I do not intend to follow” ? ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2014, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bergdahl-being-swiftboated/689840/169 "2014-06-04T13:07:57Z")
> [@Xema](#): > > And their behavior justifies yours? The great right wing smear machine has decided that a soldier should be condemned to perpetual captivitiy by the Taliban without so much as a trial. Next to them, my behavior is exemplary. ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2014, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bergdahl-being-swiftboated/689840/170 "2014-06-04T13:09:57Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Do you disagree on principle with General Dempsey? I think I do. A commitment to recover any and all captured combatants makes sense. What you should be willing to sacrifice for such a recovery ought to depend on circumstances. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2014, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bergdahl-being-swiftboated/689840/171 "2014-06-04T13:13:53Z")
It really has come to this, hasn’t it? One of our major parties, and its most prominent leaders and media mouthpiece, opposes the recovery of an American POW, and happily spreads all the rumors it can find about his behavior, even inventing stories about how many men died to get him back - and simply because Obama did it. Remember that when somebody tells you both parties are pretty much the same. ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2014, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bergdahl-being-swiftboated/689840/172 "2014-06-04T13:14:43Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > The great right wing smear machine has decided that a soldier should be condemned to perpetual captivitiy by the Taliban without so much as a trial. Next to them, my behavior is exemplary. I’m surprised to learn that you derive your standards of behavior from such a source, and are apparently comfortable with this. ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2014, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bergdahl-being-swiftboated/689840/173 "2014-06-04T13:15:52Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > They refuse to celebrate the safe return of a POW out of blind hatred for Obama. As an intelligent guy you have to know there’s a little more to it than that. Even some of the [Senate Dems](http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/senate-democrats-go-awol_794287.html) are distancing themselves from previous statements of unqualified support. The more we learn about Bergdahl and the circumstances of his disappearance and time in captivity the more troubling this affair becomes. Should Bergdahl have been brought back? Certainly. Should he have been traded for five senior Taliban leaders, one of them suspected of horrendous war crimes? Certainly not. If this is the best deal Obama could get then he’s not much of a horse trader. It is good to hear that Bergdahl will be held to strict account if he is found to be guilty o any military crimes such as desertion or collaborating with the enemy. That is the very least we owe to the soldiers who never left their posts. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2014, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bergdahl-being-swiftboated/689840/174 "2014-06-04T13:16:27Z")
> [@Xema](#): > > I’m surprised to learn that you derive your standards of behavior from such a source, and are apparently comfortable with this. I’m not seeing what you’re objecting to. Calling out people for boorish behavior is not in and of itself objectionable. ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2014, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bergdahl-being-swiftboated/689840/175 "2014-06-04T13:17:14Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > One of our major parties, and its most prominent leaders and media mouthpiece, opposes the recovery of an American POW Is there evidence that the opposition is to the recovery itself, as opposed to the price paid for that recovery? ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2014, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bergdahl-being-swiftboated/689840/176 "2014-06-04T13:19:18Z")
_Quote: Originally Posted by iiandyiiii Apparently those interviews with fellow angry soldiers were arranged by GOP operatives. Count me as unsurprised._ According to your linked article, the interviews were arranged by a Democrat and a Republican. \*Grenell’s partner at Capitol Media Partners, Brad Chase, confirmed to Buzzfeed that the firm did indeed help set up the interviews. Along with the Times, Full and Cornelison also did interviews with The Weekly Standard, the Daily Mail, the Wall Street Journal and Fox News. Chase disputed the notion that the interviews were arranged by “Republican strategists.” Pointing out that he is a Democrat, Chase called the characterization “100% inaccurate.” However, a producer for for the Michael Berry Show, a radio program that booked one of the soldiers, told Buzzfeed that Grenell was the primary point of contact for the interview.\* According to the “twitter-verse” - Richard Grenell @RichardGrenell I asked my firm @Capitol\_Media to offer pro bono services to the young soldiers. @MrBradChase quickly volunteered. Brad is not a Republican. 10:18 AM - 3 Jun 2014 Five years after being subjected to an unusual brigade-wide, non-disclosure agreement, there seems to be many of Bergdahl’s fellow soldiers who are willing to ignore the possibility of punishment for discussing Bergdahl’s actions. Should these soldiers be given an outlet for their views or should the media ignore these soldiers (for the soldiers own protection?)? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2014, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bergdahl-being-swiftboated/689840/177 "2014-06-04T13:21:14Z")
> [@Xema](#): > > Is there evidence that the opposition is to the recovery itself, as opposed to the price paid for that recovery? Even if you can separate the concepts, how does it matter? ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2014, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bergdahl-being-swiftboated/689840/178 "2014-06-04T13:21:24Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > As an intelligent guy you have to know there’s a little more to it than that. Even some of the [Senate Dems](http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/senate-democrats-go-awol_794287.html) are distancing themselves from previous statements of unqualified support. The more we learn about Bergdahl and the circumstances of his disappearance and time in captivity the more troubling this affair becomes. > > Should Bergdahl have been brought back? Certainly. Should he have been traded for five senior Taliban leaders, one of them suspected of horrendous war crimes? Certainly not. If this is the best deal Obama could get then he’s not much of a horse trader. It is good to hear that Bergdahl will be held to strict account if he is found to be guilty o any military crimes such as desertion or collaborating with the enemy. That is the very least we owe to the soldiers who never left their posts. Nobody is saying let’s forget why he left the post. Was he suicidal, was he seeing to join the other side? By all means let military justice prevail. If found guilty, let him suffer the consequences. Sure, it’s not unreasonable to question the price paid for his release. Maybe we could have gotten him in exchange for four guys and not five. But the Republican overreaction to this just shows how freaking nuts they are. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2014, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bergdahl-being-swiftboated/689840/179 "2014-06-04T13:22:11Z")
> [@Xema](#): > > I think I do. > > A commitment to recover any and all captured combatants makes sense. What you should be willing to sacrifice for such a recovery ought to depend on circumstances. Those circumstances should not include unproven (and un-responded to) allegations and supposed notes left behind. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2014, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bergdahl-being-swiftboated/689840/180 "2014-06-04T13:26:07Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > As an intelligent guy you have to know there’s a little more to it than that. Even some of the [Senate Dems](http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/senate-democrats-go-awol_794287.html) are distancing themselves from previous statements of unqualified support. The more we learn about Bergdahl and the circumstances of his disappearance and time in captivity the more troubling this affair becomes. No – the alleged circumstances of his disappearance and time in captivity have nothing to do with why or whether we should recover him, or how much value we place on him. Like the Chairman of the JCoS says: “the questions about this particular soldier’s conduct are separate from our effort to recover ANY U.S. service member in enemy captivity”. > [@](#): > > Should Bergdahl have been brought back? Certainly. Should he have been traded for five senior Taliban leaders, one of them suspected of horrendous war crimes? Certainly not. This is not an obvious “certainly not”. Israel has traded a thousand prisoners for one Israeli soldier. > [@](#): > > If this is the best deal Obama could get then he’s not much of a horse trader. There’s no way you could possibly know, at this point, whether this was a good trade or not. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bergdahl-being-swiftboated/689840.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bergdahl-being-swiftboated/689840.md?page=10)