# Is Biblical literalism really a recent phenomenon? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 17, 2013, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-biblical-literalism-really-a-recent-phenomenon/663746 "2013-07-17T13:16:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2013, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-biblical-literalism-really-a-recent-phenomenon/663746/201 "2013-07-24T15:37:48Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > OK, well I was wondering what your thoughts are regarding what Jesus’ comments on prayer. It’s something you can submit to scientific testing. Just another metaphor? What suggests divinity? What suggested divinity to his earliest followers is up for debate, but clearly he touched subversively on their conceptions of what is ultimately important. From the earliest layers of new testament texts, what it seems to have been all about at first was radical inclusion and forgiveness as opposed to exclusion and accounting-of-wrongs. Obviously the idea wasn’t new to him, but it seems he said it and/or lived it in a way that made people feel like they were in contact, not with just a new and interesting teaching, but with something of absolute and ultimate importance. As to whether this “really” suggests divinity or not, this isn’t how I (and many other liberal christians) approach the issue of his divinity. For me, the point isn’t to figure out whether he’s divine and then act on that. Rather, it’s to ask what it meant to his earlier followers to think of him as divine, and then see if pursuing or hoping to create similar encounters in my own life is ultimately worthwhile. Now this isn’t purely newfangled. All the way back to earliest times–the New Testament texts themselves–you see a focus on the idea of Christ’s life, or the divine life, as something we ourselves take on. In other words, they themselves were trying to figure out “Why does this feel like I’m dealing with divinity, i.e., things of ultimate and final importance, and what does it mean for what attitudes I should have and how I should live?” The questions are the same for me and many other liberal christians. The miracle stuff? I got nothin. ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2013, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-biblical-literalism-really-a-recent-phenomenon/663746/202 "2013-07-24T15:47:14Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > As to whether this “really” suggests divinity or not, this isn’t how I (and many other liberal christians) approach the issue of his divinity. For me, the point isn’t to figure out whether he’s divine and then act on that. OK, but what makes you think he’s divine? Or do you not really think that he is? > [@](#): > > Now this isn’t purely newfangled. Maybe not, but I think it’s _largely_ newfangled. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2013, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-biblical-literalism-really-a-recent-phenomenon/663746/203 "2013-07-24T15:51:53Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > OK, but what makes you think he’s divine? Or do you not really think that he is? I don’t think it is an issue worth debating. I will affirm here that I think you can say everything important and worth saying as a Christian without mentioning god or divinity even once. It depends on your audience. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2013, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-biblical-literalism-really-a-recent-phenomenon/663746/204 "2013-07-24T15:55:43Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > What suggested divinity to his earliest followers is up for debate, but clearly he touched subversively on their conceptions of what is ultimately important. From the earliest layers of new testament texts, what it seems to have been all about at first was radical inclusion and forgiveness as opposed to exclusion and accounting-of-wrongs. Obviously the idea wasn’t new to him, but it seems he said it and/or lived it in a way that made people feel like they were in contact, not with just a new and interesting teaching, but with something of absolute and ultimate importance. > > As to whether this “really” suggests divinity or not, this isn’t how I (and many other liberal christians) approach the issue of his divinity. For me, the point isn’t to figure out whether he’s divine and then act on that. Rather, it’s to ask what it meant to his earlier followers to think of him as divine, and then see if pursuing or hoping to create similar encounters in my own life is ultimately worthwhile. > > Now this isn’t purely newfangled. All the way back to earliest times–the New Testament texts themselves–you see a focus on the idea of Christ’s life, or the divine life, as something we ourselves take on. In other words, they themselves were trying to figure out “Why does this feel like I’m dealing with divinity, i.e., things of ultimate and final importance, and what does it mean for what attitudes I should have and how I should live?” The questions are the same for me and many other liberal christians. > > The miracle stuff? I got nothin. This is a little “me me me” I know, but I am curious to hear from other liberal christians whether I’m more ideosyncratic here than I know. Have I misrepresented things much here? ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2013, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-biblical-literalism-really-a-recent-phenomenon/663746/205 "2013-07-24T15:57:06Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > I don’t think it is an issue worth debating. I get it. You weaken your appeal to rationality if you admit what makes you think Jesus is divine. From the discussion in the Nyborg study, they say religion is 64% inherited, so probably you were just raised with that belief. > [@](#): > > I will affirm here that I think you can say everything important and worth saying as a Christian without mentioning god or divinity even once. Like what? ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2013, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-biblical-literalism-really-a-recent-phenomenon/663746/206 "2013-07-24T16:00:15Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > This is a little “me me me” I know, but I am curious to hear from other liberal christians whether I’m more ideosyncratic here than I know. Have I misrepresented things much here? I think backing away from anything concrete is very representable of liberal Christians. It’s good in that it lets you live more like you want, like an atheist. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2013, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-biblical-literalism-really-a-recent-phenomenon/663746/207 "2013-07-24T16:00:33Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > I get it. You weaken your appeal to rationality if you admit what makes you think Jesus is divine. You don’t even know whether I think Jesus is divine, nor do you know what the word “divine” means in my theology. (BTW it means very different things to different people.) You need to have opinions only where you have information. > [@](#): > > From the discussion in the Nyborg study, they say religion is 64% inherited, so probably you were just raised with that belief. This is not at all unlikely. > [@](#): > > Like what? I will try to get back to you on this. It’s not something I have articulated all in one place before. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2013, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-biblical-literalism-really-a-recent-phenomenon/663746/208 "2013-07-24T16:02:50Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > I think backing away from anything concrete is very representable of liberal Christians. It’s good in that it lets you live more like you want, like an atheist. There is no such thing as living “like an atheist.” ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2013, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-biblical-literalism-really-a-recent-phenomenon/663746/209 "2013-07-24T16:04:47Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > He wasn’t? Bertrand Russell says he was here, about 9 minutes in: [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9P8vqqEd2kw](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9P8vqqEd2kw) Russell is a philosopher/polemecist with an agenda, not an historian. Relying on Russell for accuracy is no different that relying on Bishop Sheen. Sometimes they get their facts right and sometimes they don’t but they are always going to spin the information to promote their perspective. > [@Kable](#): > > Sure it is. I have the Catholic Catechism right here and prohibitions against all forms of birth control (except that monthly timing thing), fornication, masterbation, and homosexuality follow from the 7th commandment, which seems to have been taken quite literally. Obviously, you are not actually looking at the Catechism if you cannot actually distinguish between the Seventh and Sixth Commandments (Catholic reckoning). Beyond that, the whole issue of sexual morality is clearly not driven by a mere “literal” reading of the Sixth Commandment or even the statement of Jesus in Mt 5:27 - 28, but on a whole series of commentaries, expressions, interpretations, and so forth. Your “literal” clam in the context you made it is just silly. ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2013, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-biblical-literalism-really-a-recent-phenomenon/663746/210 "2013-07-24T16:04:52Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > You don’t even know whether I think Jesus is divine, nor do you know what the word “divine” means in my theology. No, but I asked and you refused to answer though it would have been easy to do so. So based on that I’m making assumptions. > [@](#): > > I will try to get back to you on this. It’s not something I have articulated all in one place before. Maybe put it in a nutshell. ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2013, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-biblical-literalism-really-a-recent-phenomenon/663746/211 "2013-07-24T16:13:40Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Russell is a philosopher/polemecist with an agenda, not an historian. Relying on Russell for accuracy is no different that relying on Bishop Sheen. Sometimes they get their facts right and sometimes they don’t but they are always going to spin the information to promote their perspective. OK, but you claimed he wasn’t threatened with torture. How else do you think they got him to purger himself? Do you have any specific criticisms or his book "Religion and Science? > [@](#): > > Obviously, you are not actually looking at the Catechism if you cannot actually distinguish between the Seventh and Sixth Commandments (Catholic reckoning). No I got it right here in hard cover. You are right, it’s the 6th. > [@](#): > > Beyond that, the whole issue of sexual morality is clearly not driven by a mere “literal” reading of the Sixth Commandment or even the statement of Jesus in Mt 5:27 - 28, but on a whole series of commentaries, expressions, interpretations, and so forth. Your “literal” clam in the context you made it is just silly. It all comes from the 6th commandment chapter. You Catholics are taking Mt 5:27-28 literal too it seems. You can admit it. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2013, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-biblical-literalism-really-a-recent-phenomenon/663746/212 "2013-07-24T16:26:52Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > No, but I asked and you refused to answer though it would have been easy to do so. So based on that I’m making assumptions. Look, you’ve got an idea what divinity is and what it means for there to “be a god.” I doubt that on your conception, I am a theist. Since I don’t think it ever pays to try to explain anything by reference to an omnipotent conscious force. I suspect that, in your language, I’m an atheist. I _also_ think that a fruitful discussion can be had about whether that conception of theism is in keeping with what is most important and enlightening about the theistic tradition. But based on your discussion in this thread so far, I don’t think you’re a person who would particularly enjoy such a conversation or find it very helpful. > [@](#): > > Maybe put it in a nutshell. Three themes come to mind, I’ll sloganize them: –Each person is of equal worth. –All rules are only tools. –To accept is better than to expect. You can imagine most people, both then and now, find it easiest to elaborate on thoughts like this using the language of divinity. And I think that’s fine. But I also don’t think it’s necessary. But even if unnecessary, it’s still very much a particularly _Christian_ message–by which I don’t mean to say only Christians (or Jesus) have ever taught things like this, but that the confluence of teachings like this is what’s central to the essence of Christianity’s teachings. ETA: The third slogan is a little dangerous and easy to take too far, but note that it doesn’t imply one should never expect. ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2013, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-biblical-literalism-really-a-recent-phenomenon/663746/213 "2013-07-24T16:34:29Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > Look, you’ve got an idea what divinity is and what it means for there to “be a god.” I doubt that on your conception, I am a theist. Please explain. > [@](#): > > Since I don’t think it ever pays to try to explain anything by reference to an omnipotent conscious force. Just put it in your own words. > [@](#): > > Three themes come to mind, I’ll sloganize them: > > –Each person is of equal worth. > > –All rules are only tools. > > –To accept is better than to expect. You have to cherry pick though a lot of opposite pointing verses to get the above though, don’t you? > [@](#): > > …but that the confluence of teachings like this is what’s central to the essence of Christianity’s teachings. I guess if you want to pick whatever you like and call it “central” then there you are. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2013, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-biblical-literalism-really-a-recent-phenomenon/663746/214 "2013-07-24T16:35:59Z")
Maybe the third should be rephrased “Openness is better than expectation.” To be honest I’ve never been able to formulate it in a way that satisfied me. Because of course, it’d be impossible to live if one literally never expected anything. But something near and around that area. Maybe “Intellectual humility is a superlatively important virtue.” Iunno. ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2013, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-biblical-literalism-really-a-recent-phenomenon/663746/215 "2013-07-24T16:38:54Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > Maybe the third should be rephrased “Openness is better than expectation.” > > To be honest I’ve never been able to formulate it in a way that satisfied me. Because of course, it’d be impossible to live if one literally never expected anything. But something near and around that area. Maybe “Intellectual humility is a superlatively important virtue.” Iunno. See I would think more central would be that man’s righteousness is filthy rags and our soul purpose is to fear God and keep his commandments. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2013, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-biblical-literalism-really-a-recent-phenomenon/663746/216 "2013-07-24T16:42:33Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > Please explain. > Just put it in your own words. > You have to cherry pick though a lot of opposite pointing verses to get the above though, don’t you? > I guess if you want to pick whatever you like and call it “central” then there you are. Of course, any “picking” is “picking whatever you like,” the question is whether “whatever you like” is principled or not. For example, concerning opposite pointing verses, there’s a general principle to follow when “picking through” the various passages. What’s likely to be “central” is the stuff that’s surprising, that is new and unusual for its time and place, or that is difficult to make complete sense of. The stuff that seems contrary to this is most likely reactions after the fact, trying to reign in “excesses.” If it weren’t this way, there’d have been no reason for the movement to identify itself as a movement in the first place–if they were just teaching the same old same old from the beginning, then they wouldn’t have been a movement. You can see that this allows for an objective character to the investigation. It’s not just about what I like. ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2013, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-biblical-literalism-really-a-recent-phenomenon/663746/217 "2013-07-24T16:47:26Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > Of course, any “picking” is “picking whatever you like,” the question is whether “whatever you like” is principled or not. So what makes you think you are not just picking what you want? > [@](#): > > For example, concerning opposite pointing verses, there’s a general principle to follow when “picking through” the various passages. What’s likely to be “central” is the stuff that’s surprising, that is new and unusual for its time and place, or that is difficult to make complete sense of. You don’t think worship God or suffer grave consequences of His wrath is central? ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2013, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-biblical-literalism-really-a-recent-phenomenon/663746/218 "2013-07-24T16:48:49Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > So what makes you think you are not just picking what you want? I went on to answer that very question in the very same post. Did you not see that? ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2013, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-biblical-literalism-really-a-recent-phenomenon/663746/219 "2013-07-24T16:51:27Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > I went on to answer that very question in the very same post. Did you not see that? Special pleading. Isn’t it conspicuous that the truths you get look so much like modern day liberalism. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2013, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-biblical-literalism-really-a-recent-phenomenon/663746/220 "2013-07-24T16:54:44Z")
What I said is manifestly not special pleading. I told you the procedure one can use to get at the main themes I described. The procedure makes sense independently of my own desires or biases. I don’t think it’s a coincidence that they look like modern day liberalism. I think that the enlightenment values that gave birth to modern day liberalism were, themselves, upholding (or at least the product of positive engagement with) what is best in the Christian teachings. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-biblical-literalism-really-a-recent-phenomenon/663746.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-biblical-literalism-really-a-recent-phenomenon/663746.md?page=12)