# Is Biblical literalism really a recent phenomenon? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 17, 2013, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-biblical-literalism-really-a-recent-phenomenon/663746 "2013-07-17T13:16:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2013, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-biblical-literalism-really-a-recent-phenomenon/663746/281 "2013-08-01T00:58:10Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > Yeah, I’ve seen a lot of assertions and foot stamping on special pleading by Kable in this thread: I can’t find any substantiation. Talking to **Kable** feels _exactly and exactly_ like talking to ignorant religious fundies on redstate type websites and Christian forums. It was a good discussion for a while. Well, half of it was a good discussion for a while. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2013, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-biblical-literalism-really-a-recent-phenomenon/663746/282 "2013-08-01T01:00:26Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > I mentioned a specific example in post 248. You will deny it of course, which you did then. That’s the neat thing about special pleading and denial, you can just continue to do it. More evidence that you’re terrible at this: You don’t know the difference between a counter-assertion and a counterargument. I am not even confident you will understand the relevance of that comment. > [@](#): > > OK, but so what? You think I am looking for your approval or something? I got you to admit you doubt the divinity of Christ, and that you can’t articulate why you call yourself a Christian anyway. That’s enough for me. It is as I have already told you: As far as you can be concerned, I am an atheist, and I am happy to cop to the label when speaking with you. I gave you some articulation of my own way of talking about these things, but explicitly said that your way is simpler, and that simpler is generally better. It seems we’re on the same page here. I don’t know what you’re arguing about. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2013, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-biblical-literalism-really-a-recent-phenomenon/663746/283 "2013-08-01T01:10:21Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > You think I am looking for your approval or something? Wanted to say something about this too. I think you are looking for ways to make good, truth-preserving arguments that would be convincing, or at least forceful, for those who understand how to reason well. I am pointing out the ways you are failing at this. But I am doing a terrible job of motivating you to follow up, of course. That’s my bad. ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2013, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-biblical-literalism-really-a-recent-phenomenon/663746/284 "2013-08-01T01:10:47Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > More evidence that you’re terrible at this: You don’t know the difference between a counter-assertion and a counterargument. > > I am not even confident you will understand the relevance of that comment. You totally remind me of this fundamentalist Christian that kept going on and on about how free will was compatible with predestination. He just kept saying it over and over, no matter what. > [@](#): > > It is as I have already told you: As far as you can be concerned, I am an atheist, and I am happy to cop to the label when speaking with you. I gave you some articulation of my own way of talking about these things, but explicitly said that your way is simpler, and that simpler is generally better. It seems we’re on the same page here. I don’t know what you’re arguing about. As far as I’m concerned you are a superstitious/agnostic/pantheist but I don’t think you can organize your thoughts well enough to be sure yourself. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2013, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-biblical-literalism-really-a-recent-phenomenon/663746/285 "2013-08-01T01:17:59Z")
So this could backfire or go nowhere, and I really probably shouldn’t be continuing this conversation I know, but I wonder, if some number of _atheists_ on this forum were to tell you that you are arguing poorly in our conversation and that I am scoring points with each exchange (we’ll ignore the malus I ought to suffer for going on about the topic far past the point of reasonable conversation), would that give you pause at all? ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2013, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-biblical-literalism-really-a-recent-phenomenon/663746/286 "2013-08-01T01:47:00Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > So this could backfire or go nowhere, and I really probably shouldn’t be continuing this conversation I know, but I wonder, if some number of _atheists_ on this forum were to tell you that you are arguing poorly in our conversation and that I am scoring points with each exchange (we’ll ignore the malus I ought to suffer for going on about the topic far past the point of reasonable conversation), would that give you pause at all? Nope. “You’re neither right nor wrong because other people agree with you. You’re right because your facts are right and your reasoning is right—and that’s the only thing that makes you right. And if your facts and reasoning are right, you don’t have to worry about anybody else.” Benjamin Graham ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2013, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-biblical-literalism-really-a-recent-phenomenon/663746/287 "2013-08-01T02:01:37Z")
You’re misapplying that quote because you’re not making the necessary distinction between agreement with your conclusion and evaluation of the quality of your reasoning. I did not ask what you would think if atheists in this thread disagreed with you. I asked what you would think if they said you were reasoning poorly. ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2013, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-biblical-literalism-really-a-recent-phenomenon/663746/288 "2013-08-01T02:23:49Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > You’re misapplying that quote because you’re not making the necessary distinction between agreement with your conclusion and evaluation of the quality of your reasoning. Really? > [@](#): > > I did not ask what you would think if atheists in this thread disagreed with you. I asked what you would think if they said you were reasoning poorly. I feel like I’m conversing with someone with Aspergers syndrome. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2013, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-biblical-literalism-really-a-recent-phenomenon/663746/289 "2013-08-01T02:42:11Z")
**Kable** , did it occur to you you could be speaking with someone with exactly that condition? Are you using the condition as an insult? Anyway, my bet is that every person reading our conversation\* who _agrees with you_ also thinks you’re _reasoning very poorly_ and making a poor contribution to the discussion as a result. And of course, they’d be right to think so. \*This may number possibly into the ones. ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2013, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-biblical-literalism-really-a-recent-phenomenon/663746/290 "2013-08-01T02:57:17Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > **Kable** , did it occur to you you could be speaking with someone with exactly that condition? Of course it did. Do you have it? > [@](#): > > Are you using the condition as an insult? No, rather a diagnosis. > [@](#): > > Anyway, my bet is that every person reading our conversation\* who _agrees with you_ also thinks you’re _reasoning very poorly_ and making a poor contribution to the discussion as a result. And of course, they’d be right to think so. Really? ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2013, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-biblical-literalism-really-a-recent-phenomenon/663746/291 "2013-08-01T03:01:42Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > No, rather a diagnosis. That is not the truth. ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2013, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-biblical-literalism-really-a-recent-phenomenon/663746/292 "2013-08-01T03:10:12Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > That is not the truth. It is the truth. Do you have it? ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2013, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-biblical-literalism-really-a-recent-phenomenon/663746/293 "2013-08-01T03:15:14Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > So this could backfire or go nowhere, and I really probably shouldn’t be continuing this conversation I know, but I wonder, if some number of _atheists_ on this forum were to tell you that you are arguing poorly in our conversation and that I am scoring points with each exchange (we’ll ignore the malus I ought to suffer for going on about the topic far past the point of reasonable conversation), would that give you pause at all? FWIW, I’m an atheist, and would hold that **Kable** is not arguing effectively… To the original question, I had always thought that a literal interpretation of the Bible was the unspoken default for most of the Christian Era. Not that it was a specific doctrine, because it was just given. People don’t tend to make specific doctrines out of what everybody knows. I’d always learned that nearly everyone in Christendom in late Roman and medieval times believed in the Flood, the Parting of the Red Sea, Jonah and the Whale, that Goliath was a giant, the Genealogy of Christ, etc, and that no one even thought to question it all. This thread has been a surprise. Also a train wreck. But I think the point needs to be made a little more clearly for those of us who honestly didn’t know: taking scripture as metaphor goes back farther than we had known. ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2013, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-biblical-literalism-really-a-recent-phenomenon/663746/294 "2013-08-01T03:23:14Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > I’d always learned that nearly everyone in Christendom in late Roman and medieval times believed in the Flood, the Parting of the Red Sea, Jonah and the Whale, that Goliath was a giant, the Genealogy of Christ, etc, and that no one even thought to question it all. Has anyone presented evidence that “nearly everyone in Christendom in late Roman and medieval times” didn’t believe all those things? ---
**Author:** ![Razncain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9d8465/32.png) [@Razncain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Razncain)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2013, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-biblical-literalism-really-a-recent-phenomenon/663746/295 "2013-08-01T04:02:37Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > But I think the point needs to be made a little more clearly for those of us who honestly didn’t know: taking scripture as metaphor goes back farther than we had known. A glance of the early church fathers show they used it and took it a bit further when they had to. E.g., Christians relied quite a bit on allegory in the OT to show it prophesizing of Jesus Christ. Most from what I’ve read from them show they still took much of the major stories as literally happening. And despite Fundamentalists often being made out as strict literalists, they are heavy into allegory especially when it comes to prophecy, while many of the liberal Christians of today will perhaps admit such scriptures really don’t point to Christ or fulfill any scriptures. Strong’s concordance is a conservative source. In the back (or look on-line) find the over 40 “Prophecies of the Messiah fulfilled in Jesus Christ.” It lists the scriptures in the OT that is prophesized and in the NT shows where it becomes fulfilled. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2013, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-biblical-literalism-really-a-recent-phenomenon/663746/296 "2013-08-01T04:44:03Z")
> [@razncain](#): > > . . . Strong’s concordance is a conservative source. In the back (or look on-line) find the over 40 “Prophecies of the Messiah fulfilled in Jesus Christ.” It lists the scriptures in the OT that is prophesized and in the NT shows where it becomes fulfilled. My opinion is that a lot of these fulfilments were contrived, and that the stories were told in such a way as to seem to fulfill. For instance, that Jesus’ legs weren’t broken, thus fulfilling the prophecy (?) of Psalm 34:20. I would simply say that we don’t know whether or not Jesus’ legs were broken, and that the guy who wrote the story wrote it that way in order to make the story fit his ideas of prophecy. But… This is a great big side-track and highjack, and deserves its own thread! ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2013, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-biblical-literalism-really-a-recent-phenomenon/663746/297 "2013-08-01T04:52:39Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > Has anyone presented evidence that “nearly everyone in Christendom in late Roman and medieval times” didn’t believe all those things? That’s one of the things that I think this thread needs a little more clarity on. I’ve been reading it from the beginning, and I’m still not wholly clear on what exactly is being debated. There’s a lot more heat than light, if you know what I mean. I was always taught to believe that everyone believed those things, but the point seems to be debated, and, frankly, I have enough respect for **tomndebb** ’s scholarship to take his points very, very seriously. His post #157 in this thread was, for me, really the strongest answer. People did believe in all the stories…but no one had come right out and made a formal doctrinal declaration that all the stories were infallibly literally true. Some people, today, do make that declaration. It seems to be relatively recent. The thread is being educational. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2013, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-biblical-literalism-really-a-recent-phenomenon/663746/298 "2013-08-01T04:53:46Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > That is not the truth. Accusations of lying are not permitted in Great Debates. Knock it off. > [@Kable](#): > > Of course it did. Do you have it? > No, rather a diagnosis. Claims (or Glenn Beck type “questions”) about another poster’s mental state are not pertinent and much too close to personal attacks. Stop it. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2013, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-biblical-literalism-really-a-recent-phenomenon/663746/299 "2013-08-01T05:13:05Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Accusations of lying are not permitted in Great Debates. Though I tried to word it carefully so as to maintain the possibility that he was somehow mistaken about his own motivations, I recognize (and recognized at the time) the more plausible interpretation of what I said, so I’ll avoid this device in the future. ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2013, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-biblical-literalism-really-a-recent-phenomenon/663746/300 "2013-08-01T13:39:29Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > I was always taught to believe that everyone believed those things, but the point seems to be debated… I’d don’t know that I would say everyone believed those things, but I feel pretty comfortable saying most every Christian did, or would at least say he did, so he wouldn’t get hung up by his thumbs. The best I have heard apologists for liberal Christianity come up with is St. Augustine allowing that some passages could be taken metaphorically (which is just a matter of degree because as **razncain** rightfully points out, so do modern fundamentalists). However if I’m not mistaken Augustine was yet another young earth creationist who believed in “the Flood, the Parting of the Red Sea, Jonah and the Whale, that Goliath was a giant, the Genealogy of Christ” etc. Here’s apparently what Augustine had to say about Jonah, which sounds remarkably fundamentalist: “Either all the divine miracles are to be disbelieved, or else there is no reason why this should not be believed. We should not believe in Christ Himself, and that He rose on the third day, if the faith of Christians feared the laughter of the pagans.” > **[LT101 - On the Prophet Jonah](http://www.rtforum.org/lt/lt101.html)** > > On the Prophet Jonah > [@](#): > > People did believe in all the stories…but no one had come right out and made a formal doctrinal declaration that all the stories were infallibly literally true. So we agree, you were taught correctly. According to wiki “high regard for religious scriptures” started with the Jews from 200 BCE to 200 CE… > **[Biblical literalism | History](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_literalism#History)** > > The high regard for religious scriptures in the Judeo-Christian tradition seems to relate in part to a process of canonization of the Hebrew Bible, which occurred over the course of a few centuries from approximately 200 BCE to 200 CE. In the Jewish tradition, the highly regarded written word represented a direct conduit to the mind of God, and the later rabbinical school of Judaism encouraged the attendant scholarship that accompanied a literary religion. Similarly, the canonization of the N Ori... …while liberal Christianity didn’t get its start until the late 18th century: > **[Liberal Christianity](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_Christianity)** > > Liberal Christianity, also known as liberal theology and historically as Christian Modernism (see Catholic modernism and Fundamentalist–Modernist controversy), is a movement that interprets Christian teaching by prioritizing modern knowledge, science and ethics. It emphasizes the importance of reason and experience over doctrinal authority. Liberal Christians view their theology as an alternative to both atheistic rationalism and theologies based on traditional interpretations of external aut Li... [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-biblical-literalism-really-a-recent-phenomenon/663746.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-biblical-literalism-really-a-recent-phenomenon/663746.md?page=16)