# Is Bin Laden an expert in American History, or just odd coincidences? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 7, 2002, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bin-laden-an-expert-in-american-history-or-just-odd-coincidences/127446 "2002-09-07T17:43:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Joe\_Cool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ecb155/32.png) [@Joe\_Cool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joe_Cool)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2002, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bin-laden-an-expert-in-american-history-or-just-odd-coincidences/127446/1 "2002-09-07T17:43:52Z")
I’m wondering if the day chosen for the attacks last year was just random, or if it was as carefully chosen as its targets. Obviously the WTC and the Pentagon were/are both important symbols of American economic and military power. The reasons for their being the targets are obvious. But the date of Sept. 11 seems to be a particularly poignent one as well: Ground was broken and construction on the Pentagon on September 11, 1941. Henry Hudson discovered the island of Manhattan on Sept 11, 1609. General William Tecumseh Sherman took military action to the civilian population when he burned Atlanta on Sept 11, 1864. There seem to be too many relevant reasons for attacking on that day for it to be a coincidence. So my question is: Was it? Or did he really do his homework and choose it carefully? ---
**Author:** ![Joe\_Cool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ecb155/32.png) [@Joe\_Cool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joe_Cool)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2002, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bin-laden-an-expert-in-american-history-or-just-odd-coincidences/127446/2 "2002-09-07T17:46:53Z")
yes, I **do** know how to spell poignant. ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2002, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bin-laden-an-expert-in-american-history-or-just-odd-coincidences/127446/3 "2002-09-07T17:49:06Z")
One flaw in your theory is that the Pentagon was almost certainly not the primary target at all. Most experts agree that the White House was the target for that aircraft but the planners failed to take into account how hard it is to see the White House from thousands of feet in the air going hundreds of miles per hour. The terrorists knew that American fighter aircraft were closing in on them and they needed to hit something so they went with the huge and easy to see Pentagon as a secondary choice. ---
**Author:** ![Alphagene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Alphagene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alphagene)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2002, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bin-laden-an-expert-in-american-history-or-just-odd-coincidences/127446/4 "2002-09-07T17:57:34Z")
You forget Ford introducted the Pinto on September 11, 1970 **a car notorious for exploding or something!!!** IMO, those are all rather weak rationales for picking that date. I mean, Sherman burning Atlanta? Besides, I don’t think the hijackers considered themselves military men attacking a civilian target. I’m guessing they thought they were agents of Good attacking Evil. Considering that the attack would have been much harder to pull off had the weather been crappy, I’d assume the terrorists needed to be a little flexible on the date. ---
**Author:** ![Joe\_Cool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ecb155/32.png) [@Joe\_Cool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joe_Cool)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2002, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bin-laden-an-expert-in-american-history-or-just-odd-coincidences/127446/5 "2002-09-07T18:11:00Z")
Bin Laden certainly does seem to consider himself a military man. Unless I’m mistaken, he was armed and trained by CIA to fight the Soviet Union in Afghanistan. I don’t see how we can fail to call the people who turned the Soviets back in defeat are not military, regardless of their choice of tactics. Whether he considered his victims to be civilians is another matter, obviously. But given his history, I think it’s at least roughly synonymous in his own mind to the burning of Atlanta: > [@](#): > > You might as well appeal against the thunder-storm as against these terrible hardships of war. They are inevitable, and the only way the people of Atlanta can hope once more to live in peace and quiet at home, is to stop the war, which can only be done by admitting that it began in error and is perpetuated in pride… > > …the South began war by seizing forts, arsenals, mints, custom-houses, etc., etc., long before Mr. Lincoln was installed, and before the South had one jot or title of provocation. I myself have seen in Missouri, Kentucky, Tennessee, and Mississippi, hundreds of thousands of women and children fleeing from your armies and desperadoes, hungry and with bleeding feet. In Memphis, Vicksburg, and Mississippi, we fed thousands upon thousands of families of rebel soldiers left in our hands, and whom we could not see starve. **Now that war comes home to you, you feel very different. You depreciate its horrors, but did not feel them when you sent car-loads of soldiers and ammunition, and moulded shells and shot, to carry war into Kentucky and Tennessee, to desolate the homes of hundreds of thousands of good people who only asked to live in peace at their old homes, and under the Government of their inheritance.** But these comparisons are idle. I want peace, and believe it can only be reached through union and war, and I will ever conduct war with a view to perfect and early success. > –General Sherman, responding to Mayor James Calhoun of Atlanta Sounds not dissimilar to the terrorists’ rallying cry against the west, doesn’t it? Just replace Kentucky and Tennessee with Afghanistan, Pakistan, Palestine, etc. > [@](#): > > **You forget Ford introducted the Pinto on September 11, 1970 a car notorious for exploding or something!!!** Very funny. Obviously an ugly car’s introduction date is just as relevant as the discovery of Manhattan island and groundbreaking for the Pentagon. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2002, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bin-laden-an-expert-in-american-history-or-just-odd-coincidences/127446/6 "2002-09-07T18:17:39Z")
September 11 is also the birthday of Lola Falana (an unveiled woman with a career- well, at one time), Kristy MacNichol (an open lesbian), and Moby (bald and beardless). I’ve wondered if there’s any connection between the assault and Black September (the group responsible for the murders of the Israeli Olympic team 30 years ago this week). On both chances I doubt it. My personal belief about Osama and history is that he believes he’s the modern incarnation of the Old Man of the Mountains and that he governs himself in some ways like the Order of the Assassins. (Certainly he has suicidal disciples indulged in a garden of earthly delights before going on their mission.) ---
**Author:** ![Joe\_Cool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ecb155/32.png) [@Joe\_Cool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joe_Cool)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2002, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bin-laden-an-expert-in-american-history-or-just-odd-coincidences/127446/7 "2002-09-07T18:32:54Z")
Anyway, maybe you’re right. It could be just random coincidence. But it struck me as rather odd that that particular date was significant for both the city of New York and for the Pentagon itself, and also the anniversary date of an American General burning an American city and telling the residents that “War is cruelty, and you cannot refine it; and those who brought war into our country deserve all the curses and maledictions a people can pour out.” ---
**Author:** ![TheeGrumpy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/779978/32.png) [@TheeGrumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheeGrumpy)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2002, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bin-laden-an-expert-in-american-history-or-just-odd-coincidences/127446/8 "2002-09-07T18:47:15Z")
For that matter, we could guess that September was chosen because it’s typically a rough month on Wall Street, which made it easier to short airline stocks. And don’t forget 911 Emergency! Has William Shatner been questioned yet? Didn’t he slip into the USA across the Canadian border? ---
**Author:** ![Alphagene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Alphagene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alphagene)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2002, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bin-laden-an-expert-in-american-history-or-just-odd-coincidences/127446/9 "2002-09-07T19:34:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Joe\_Cool \* > \*\*Sounds not dissimilar to the terrorists’ rallying cry against the west, doesn’t it? \*\* Sure, especially the “I want peace” part. Fits right in with Osama’s manifesto which states “To kill Americans and their allies, both civil and military, is an individual duty of every Muslim who is able, in any country.” > [@](#): > > \*\*Very funny. Obviously an ugly car’s introduction date is just as relevant as the discovery of Manhattan island and groundbreaking for the Pentagon. :rolleyes: \*\* If the goal was to pick a a date that had important significance to America, or to the people in America, the discovery of the island of Manhattan wouldn’t make my Top 100. I still maintain that had the weather on September 11 included thunderstorms up and down the east coast, the terrorists would have waited for the next clear day, rather than stubbornly hold out for September 11, 2002. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2002, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bin-laden-an-expert-in-american-history-or-just-odd-coincidences/127446/10 "2002-09-07T19:39:51Z")
There’s only 365 days per year (excluding leap years), and a whole lotta history has already happened. Any single day will have a wide assortment of ‘important’ events associated with it. I vote for “you find conincidences when you’re looking for them” ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2002, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bin-laden-an-expert-in-american-history-or-just-odd-coincidences/127446/11 "2002-09-07T20:14:58Z")
Plus, while Sherman destroyed private houses and churches (I live in a city whose Episcopal Church proudly shows visitors the U shaped scars on the floor left when he stabled his horses there), he didn’t intentionally target civilians as casualties. OTOH, stranger things have happened, and Osama had access to excellent education and books. (It’s not believed that he availed himself of it save for the Qur’an, but so little is really known about the man himself that even his brothers are divided in their descriptions of him.) ---
**Author:** ![ResIpsaLoquitor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b3f665/32.png) [@ResIpsaLoquitor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ResIpsaLoquitor)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2002, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bin-laden-an-expert-in-american-history-or-just-odd-coincidences/127446/12 "2002-09-07T20:22:18Z")
September 11 was also the day Clinton’s legal team issued its response to Ken Starr’s report… :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2002, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bin-laden-an-expert-in-american-history-or-just-odd-coincidences/127446/13 "2002-09-07T20:30:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by wring \* > \*\*There’s only 365 days per year (excluding leap years), and a whole lotta history has already happened. Any single day will have a wide assortment of ‘important’ events associated with it. > > I vote for “you find conincidences when you’re looking for them” \*\* I agree. I bet one can take any day of the year, and a historically knowledgable person (which doesn’t describe me) could find at least as many historically significant events as described in the OP. Not only isn’t Bin Laden an expert in American history, but it’s not even odd coincidences. ---
**Author:** ![Scott\_Dickerson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f04885/32.png) [@Scott\_Dickerson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scott_Dickerson)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2002, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bin-laden-an-expert-in-american-history-or-just-odd-coincidences/127446/14 "2002-09-07T20:36:22Z")
Coincidences do happen; and sometimes their aptness is a little eerie, but meaningless. However, there are people who believe that where no probable causal connection can be demonstrated, no possible causal connection exists. That’s not logical. That OBL chose this very date for some obscure but definite reason remains a possibility. ---
**Author:** ![quizking](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/ecd19e/32.png) [@quizking](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/quizking)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2002, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bin-laden-an-expert-in-american-history-or-just-odd-coincidences/127446/15 "2002-09-07T20:39:11Z")
just a thought, but as he was a Muslim, why would he care what the date was in the christion calendar? ---
**Author:** ![TheeGrumpy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/779978/32.png) [@TheeGrumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheeGrumpy)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2002, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bin-laden-an-expert-in-american-history-or-just-odd-coincidences/127446/16 "2002-09-07T20:40:28Z")
Was it on a September 11th that Osama’s American sweetheart [insulted his manhood](http://www.snopes2.com/rumors/osama.htm)? ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2002, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bin-laden-an-expert-in-american-history-or-just-odd-coincidences/127446/17 "2002-09-07T20:43:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Scott Dickerson \* > \*\*That OBL chose this very date for some obscure but definite reason remains a possibility. \*\* Yea, it coincided with his annual hair cut. The OP speculated that the date was selected because of specific events having occured on that date, and attempting to draw ‘eerie’ coincidents from them. I contend that on **any** date, you’ll have significant events and non significant events. I’m quite certain more happened on that particular date than the OP spelled out but whoever was suggesting this theory didn’t think that (making up an example) the day “Kentucky Fried Chicken” was founded would sound particularly relevent to the audience here. I see absolutely no evidence that the day was selected for any other reason than "we want it to be in mid week vs. weekend, have to wait til all the guys are trained etc etc etc, and probably quite a few other logisitcal concerns. The point made above re: the weather is dead on target as well. Until there is something evidentiary suggesting that the date was not a logisitical selection and was, instead a theoretical/philosophical decision, my vote remains the same. ---
**Author:** ![douglips](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e68b1a/32.png) [@douglips](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/douglips)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2002, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bin-laden-an-expert-in-american-history-or-just-odd-coincidences/127446/18 "2002-09-07T20:53:55Z")
I’d say that unless you look at all the days in August, September and October and find no better “reason” to attack the US, that this is all just a coincidence. Let’s see: [ul] [li]September 7: American submarine _Turtle_ commits the first submarine attack in history, 1776. The Blitz begins on London with 300 Nazi planes attacking in 1940. Tupac Shakur was shot in 1996. Sherman orders Atlanta evacuated (I don’t think you can localize this to September 11), 1864. Also Corbin Bernsen’s birthday.[/li][li]September 6: McKinley assassinated. Israeli athletes killed in Munich, 1972.[/li][li]September 5: Jesse James, famous outlaw, born in 1847.[/li][li]September 4: Los Angeles founded. (certainly ranks with “discovery of Manhattan”)[/li][li]September 3: Treaty of Paris signed. This is when Great Britain recognized American independence.[/li][/ul] My point is that I think this is just an example of the “white van on the corner” phenomenon. We find these coincidences and attempt to attach significance. If the attack had been on just about any other day we could have found similar coincidences. ---
**Author:** ![douglips](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e68b1a/32.png) [@douglips](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/douglips)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2002, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bin-laden-an-expert-in-american-history-or-just-odd-coincidences/127446/19 "2002-09-07T20:59:01Z")
I’d say that unless you look at all the days in August, September and October and find no better “reason” to attack the US, that this is all just a coincidence. Let’s see: [ul] [li]September 7: American submarine _Turtle_ commits the first submarine attack in history, 1776. The Blitz begins on London with 300 Nazi planes attacking in 1940. Tupac Shakur was shot in 1996. Sherman orders Atlanta evacuated (I don’t think you can localize this to September 11), 1864. Also Corbin Bernsen’s birthday.[/li][li]September 6: McKinley assassinated. Israeli athletes killed in Munich, 1972.[/li][li]September 5: Jesse James, famous outlaw, born in 1847.[/li][li]September 4: Los Angeles founded. (certainly ranks with “discovery of Manhattan”)[/li][li]September 3: Treaty of Paris signed. This is when Great Britain recognized American independence.[/li][/ul] My point is that I think this is just an example of the “white van on the corner” phenomenon. We find these coincidences and attempt to attach significance. If the attack had been on just about any other day we could have found similar coincidences. ---
**Author:** ![Tars\_Tarkas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Tars\_Tarkas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tars_Tarkas)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2002, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bin-laden-an-expert-in-american-history-or-just-odd-coincidences/127446/20 "2002-09-07T21:41:16Z")
Just a coincidence. If it was July 4th, then you’d have an argument. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bin-laden-an-expert-in-american-history-or-just-odd-coincidences/127446.md?page=2)