# Is bird ownership ethical? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [May 3, 2012, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bird-ownership-ethical/620769 "2012-05-03T16:17:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Zsofia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/7bcc69/32.png) [@Zsofia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zsofia)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2012, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bird-ownership-ethical/620769/21 "2012-05-04T00:26:15Z")
> [@Omar\_Little](#): > > Man domesticated those miniature dogs and bred the hell out of them for their own pleasure. I got know problem with that if that’s what you want, but don’t act all noble that you’re doing it for them. Dog’s should be primarily working animals and weren’t meant to live in houses. Some time along the way some people humanized them and moved them inside, but their still working animals, just doing another job…making you happy. …which is a perfectly legitimate purpose to breed dogs for. Some dogs are bred to hunt badgers, and some dogs are bred to be companions. ---
**Author:** ![Jennmonkye](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/278dde/32.png) [@Jennmonkye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jennmonkye)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2012, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bird-ownership-ethical/620769/22 "2012-05-04T00:52:08Z")
I have always wondered about owning a bird like a larger parrot, who might have a lifespan of up to 70+ years. Not that any of us know when we might die, but I don’t think I could buy an animal that might potentially live 30-40 past when I might potentially die of natural causes. I would spend too much time worrying about what might happen to the bird when I was gone…is that weird? ---
**Author:** ![Askance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askance/32/8281_2.png) [@Askance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askance)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2012, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bird-ownership-ethical/620769/23 "2012-05-04T01:50:27Z")
> [@wheresgeorge04](#): > > Not quite that dramatically, but yeah, I agree. I wouldn’t own a caged bird. Flight is the essence of bird-dom, and to take that away is cruel. Completely agree, bird cages should be banned for general use IMO. What got me to this opinion was some time I spent staying in a couple’s house around 20 years ago. They had a cockatoo in a cage that wouldn’t have been even ten times the size of the bird, by volume. _And they’d clipped the wings of the bird_. The poor thing had been driven insane by the confinement and mutilation, and screamed day and night - in desperation I seriously considered killing the bird, both out of mercy and to get some sleep. I could not wait to get out of that house and never saw those people again. Would they cut off the legs of a dog to stop it running away? Those vile inhuman bastards. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2012, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bird-ownership-ethical/620769/24 "2012-05-04T01:55:36Z")
> [@CyclopticXander](#): > > I’m big on animal issues. I don’t eat them. I also love animals as pets and think that bonding with animals makes us better more empathetic humans. Birds as pets in smallish cages I’m not so sure about. I can’t claim to know whether or not being so unnaturally retrained is distressing to them, but it seems reasonable to assume they would much prefer to fly free. I feel I don’t have enough information on bird consciousness to weigh the issue of what they lose from this relationship versus what we gain from it. > > I feel like most bird ownership is based more on them as trophies or something pretty to look at as opposed to the kind of companionship we get from dogs and cats. Now I know of course that there are people who feel real companionship and love with their birds and I don’t want to deny anyone of that, but I feel that more often they are kept more like fish, a sort of decoration. I’m not sure how I should feel about that as an animal lover. While my birds do have cages, when we’re home (and my spouse is home almost all the time) they’re out of the cages. Several rooms have bird perches and/or bird gyms for them to perch on. They are invited to most of our mealtimes and get a portion of what we’re eating as long as it’s safe for birds (almost all of what we eat is). They get LOTS of interaction with each other and with humans. They _like_ humans. My conure flies to meet me at the door when I come home at night, sort of like a dog with feathers. Yes, they do get to fly around quite a bit. As for their cages - they’re basically bedrooms, or studio apartments for the little dears. Sometimes, if they get tired, they’ll go into a cage for a quick nap all by themselves which is hardly the action of something that views a cage as a prison. At night, when it’s their bedtime, they’ll also put themselves in the cages without us having to take them there. It’s a place they feel safe and protected, not a prison. The bars don’t just keep the birds in, they keep the Bad Things out. While I’m typing this I have two birds on one shoulder grooming each other and another on the other watching TV. While some people do keep birds as “trophies” or decorative items, and I find that loathsome because of how awful that came be for the birds, who need exercise and social interaction, a lot of pet birds are kept more like dogs - they’re out of the cage a lot, they are played with, they aren’t trapped in a little box 24/7. For birds _socializing_ is usually the Big Thing. Sure, flying looks like fun, but it’s like running - a little goes a long way and it’s hard work and tires them out. But birds in the parrot family like to interact with others, it’s what they live for. Note that things may be different for other types of birds. Finches, for example, become accustomed to humans nearby but they aren’t the sort to perch on your finger or learn to talk. They’re happiest with a big aviary with other finches in it. ---
**Author:** ![CyclopticXander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/59ef9b/32.png) [@CyclopticXander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CyclopticXander)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2012, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bird-ownership-ethical/620769/25 "2012-05-04T02:45:00Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > While my birds do have cages, when we’re home (and my spouse is home almost all the time) they’re out of the cages. Several rooms have bird perches and/or bird gyms for them to perch on. They are invited to most of our mealtimes and get a portion of what we’re eating as long as it’s safe for birds (almost all of what we eat is). They get LOTS of interaction with each other and with humans. They _like_ humans. My conure flies to meet me at the door when I come home at night, sort of like a dog with feathers. > > Yes, they do get to fly around quite a bit. > > As for their cages - they’re basically bedrooms, or studio apartments for the little dears. Sometimes, if they get tired, they’ll go into a cage for a quick nap all by themselves which is hardly the action of something that views a cage as a prison. At night, when it’s their bedtime, they’ll also put themselves in the cages without us having to take them there. It’s a place they feel safe and protected, not a prison. The bars don’t just keep the birds in, they keep the Bad Things out. > > While I’m typing this I have two birds on one shoulder grooming each other and another on the other watching TV. > > While some people do keep birds as “trophies” or decorative items, and I find that loathsome because of how awful that came be for the birds, who need exercise and social interaction, a lot of pet birds are kept more like dogs - they’re out of the cage a lot, they are played with, they aren’t trapped in a little box 24/7. > > For birds _socializing_ is usually the Big Thing. Sure, flying looks like fun, but it’s like running - a little goes a long way and it’s hard work and tires them out. But birds in the parrot family like to interact with others, it’s what they live for. > > Note that things may be different for other types of birds. Finches, for example, become accustomed to humans nearby but they aren’t the sort to perch on your finger or learn to talk. They’re happiest with a big aviary with other finches in it. This is an excellent informative response to my OP. You obviously know your stuff and clearly birds can be great pets when approached the way you do it. It does sound a little more high maintenance than owning a dog , so I worry about how many bird owners would be like you. It would probably help if this kind of information were distributed with buying birds as pets. ---
**Author:** ![lavenderviolet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/cdc98d/32.png) [@lavenderviolet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lavenderviolet)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2012, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bird-ownership-ethical/620769/26 "2012-05-04T02:49:12Z")
> [@Jennmonkye](#): > > I have always wondered about owning a bird like a larger parrot, who might have a lifespan of up to 70+ years. Not that any of us know when we might die, but I don’t think I could buy an animal that might potentially live 30-40 past when I might potentially die of natural causes. I would spend too much time worrying about what might happen to the bird when I was gone…is that weird? No, that’s actually very responsible. It is reckless to adopt a long-lived parrot without thinking about who will take care of it when you die. You really should identify someone who is younger and wiling to take it when you’re not able to care for it anymore. Another option would be to look at parrot rescues for an older bird that has already lost its original owner and therefore will not outlive you. Unfortunately, many parrots do end up homeless so there are plenty in bird rescues. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![araminty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b5e925/32.png) [@araminty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/araminty)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2012, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bird-ownership-ethical/620769/27 "2012-05-04T14:15:02Z")
> [@CyclopticXander](#): > > It does sound a little more high maintenance than owning a dog , so I worry about how many bird owners would be like you. It would probably help if this kind of information were distributed with buying birds as pets. No disrespect to you, or **Broomstick’s** excellent post, but this information isn’t exactly secret. Ten minutes of Googling, or browsing library shelves, will give Joe Birdbuyer all this and more. The problem is the people who don’t think to look the information up, and then, act on it, every single day, for the rest of the bird’s long life. (No one really knows how long most parrot species _are capable_ of living; they’ve been imperfectly kept in captivity, and are subject to too many external factors, usually human created, in the wild.) Also, birds don’t just come from pet stores - check out Craigslist for your town, around here I’d estimate that around one fifth of the listings in the pet section are birds or bird cages. And someone trying to rehome a bird is obviously going to be doing their darnedest to get prospective buyers to say yes, and is not necessarily putting the parrot’s welfare first. As I mentioned before, parrots have, on average, seven different homes throughout their life. Cultural factors may come into play here too. For many people, a budgie in a tiny cage is part of what makes a house a home, and very little thought is given to the welfare of the animal. Obviously the bigger parrots, like the cockatoo in **Askance’s** heartbreaking story, can make their owner’s life hell. The smaller ones don’t fight back, at least, not as loudly. Sorry I’m such a gloomy guts about this subject. I’ve been working with a parrot rescue here in the Bay area, and I see a lot of neglected birds. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2012, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bird-ownership-ethical/620769/28 "2012-05-04T18:58:55Z")
> [@Askance](#): > > _And they’d clipped the wings of the bird_ Clarify for me, please…they clipped the primary feathers, or they actually amputated part of the actual wing/limb? ---
**Author:** ![dngnb8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/977dab/32.png) [@dngnb8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dngnb8)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2012, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bird-ownership-ethical/620769/29 "2012-05-04T19:57:08Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > Clarify for me, please…they clipped the primary feathers, or they actually amputated part of the actual wing/limb? They clip feathers so the bird cannot fly away out a window. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2012, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bird-ownership-ethical/620769/30 "2012-05-04T20:05:28Z")
> [@dngnb8](#): > > They clip feathers so the bird cannot fly away out a window. I understand what is normally meant by “clipping wings”. But that’s in no real way analogous to amputating a dog’s legs. Feathers eventually molt and grow back. It’s not actual mutilation if you’re basically giving a haircut. Not that I necessarily agree with the philosophy that allows for pinioning, but when you conflate a permanent mutilation with a temporary clipping you cheapen any argument you actually have against the clipping. ---
**Author:** ![purplehorseshoe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/purplehorseshoe/32/2996_2.png) [@purplehorseshoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/purplehorseshoe)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2012, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bird-ownership-ethical/620769/31 "2012-05-04T20:13:28Z")
Properly done, wing clipping is analagous to toenail clipping, not “mutilation.” ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2012, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bird-ownership-ethical/620769/32 "2012-05-05T01:51:45Z")
> [@CyclopticXander](#): > > This is an excellent informative response to my OP. You obviously know your stuff and clearly birds can be great pets when approached the way you do it. > > It does sound a little more high maintenance than owning a dog , so I worry about how many bird owners would be like you. It would probably help if this kind of information were distributed with buying birds as pets. It’s not so much high maintenance as _different_. Cats and dogs are mammals like us. Birds are not mammals. They are more different, they have different needs, different body language, etc. There are MANY people and groups out there eager to educate potential bird owners. The problem is, far too many people are ignorant of their own ignorance. ---
**Author:** ![Crab\_Rangoon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7ba0ec/32.png) [@Crab\_Rangoon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crab_Rangoon)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2012, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bird-ownership-ethical/620769/33 "2012-05-05T14:18:36Z")
We have a pair of parakeets - it seems to me that the important thing for the birds (and probably for most pets) is the companionship. If you get a bird - especially of the parrot/cockatoo type - you need to be a constant companion and pay them LOTS of attention because that’s the way they are wired - they need it. By getting two or more birds, you are ensuring they get the proper mental/emotional interactions - but they will never bond to you if they have another bird to bond with. In our case - we like having the parakeets as pets, but we don’t have the time to have a single human-bonded bird, so it’s only humane to have multiple birds. They have a big cage and lots of toys and seem perfectly happy doing all their bird-type things together. They will interact to a limited degree with us, but not the way some birds would who have bonded to their human. I’m not sure about the “need” to fly. Ours fly around in their cage - but we don’t let them out. They actually seem to enjoy climbing and creeping around quite a bit - if we put lots of branches in there - they will climb around like they are on monkey bars. Also - we have ten chickens out in the yard - we clip their wings every year to make sure they stay in their pen - I’m pretty sure they are happy even without being able to fly (and escape the pen so they can get eaten by the passing fox/bobcat/dog). Clipping is easy and harmless - they don’t seem to mind in the least. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2012, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bird-ownership-ethical/620769/34 "2012-05-05T14:34:49Z")
> [@cochrane](#): > > If dogs weren’t meant to live in houses, why are so many perfectly happy to do so? We have three dogs. When we are working outside, the dogs are with us. Although they are free to roam hundreds of acres, they head for the woods only when we go for a walk or horseback ride. In the winter, I let them outside to eliminate. They walk a few yards, squat, pee, then come running back inside. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2012, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bird-ownership-ethical/620769/35 "2012-05-06T12:17:00Z")
Just thought I’d post a [pic of the family flock](http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n563/BroomBroomstick/FamilyFlock01.jpg). You can see the stacked cages. You can’t see that their doors are open so the birds can go in them if they want to. Also visible is the bird gym, with things to climb on and play with, a cardboard box for them to hide in/chew up, and a bird bath. This allows them to move around, exercise, eat, drink, bathe, hide, play, and interact with each other. For the most part, they’re happy to stay on the gym though obviously they’re not confined and can hop/fly over to a human in the room if they so desire. You can see that the yellow-headed cockatiel has full flight feathers, he’s not clipped at all in this picture. The green bird has had the ends of his primary flight feathers clipped - this is analogous to cutting your hair and causes neither pain nor bleeding and the feathers will regrow to full length at the next molt. As done here, this does not prevent him from flying, what it does is slow him down. Since, at times, for his safety he must be in the cage we need to be able to capture him. We do minimal clipping, mostly young birds that are not fully tamed/trained. Our current oldest bird, Sydney (the white headed cockatiel) hasn’t been clipped at all for the last five years. ---
**Author:** ![Askance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askance/32/8281_2.png) [@Askance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askance)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2012, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bird-ownership-ethical/620769/36 "2012-05-08T01:36:23Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > Clarify for me, please…they clipped the primary feathers, or they actually amputated part of the actual wing/limb? > [@dngnb8](#): > > They clip feathers so the bird cannot fly away out a window. > [@jayjay](#): > > I understand what is normally meant by “clipping wings”. But that’s in no real way analogous to amputating a dog’s legs. Feathers eventually molt and grow back. It’s not actual mutilation if you’re basically giving a haircut. > > Not that I necessarily agree with the philosophy that allows for pinioning, but when you conflate a permanent mutilation with a temporary clipping you cheapen any argument you actually have against the clipping. > [@purplehorseshoe](#): > > Properly done, wing clipping is analagous to toenail clipping, not “mutilation.” They had removed the whole outer part of the wing, the equivalent of cutting your arm off at the elbow. As the bird never left the cage (while I was there anyway, a few days) I don’t think it wasn’t to stop it flying away; I presumed it was to stop it injuring its wings against the cage bars. Why they couldn’t put it in a decent size cage I couldn’t imagine, they lived in a large suburban house on a good-size block so there was plenty of room for an aviary in the yard. The man of the house was from northern Italy, whether this kind of thing is/was a common practise there I don’t know. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2012, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bird-ownership-ethical/620769/37 "2012-05-08T01:56:17Z")
> [@Askance](#): > > They had removed the whole outer part of the wing, the equivalent of cutting your arm off at the elbow. As the bird never left the cage (while I was there anyway, a few days) I don’t think it wasn’t to stop it flying away; I presumed it was to stop it injuring its wings against the cage bars. Why they couldn’t put it in a decent size cage I couldn’t imagine, they lived in a large suburban house on a good-size block so there was plenty of room for an aviary in the yard. > > The man of the house was from northern Italy, whether this kind of thing is/was a common practise there I don’t know. Okay, that I can’t support. That really IS mutilation. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2012, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bird-ownership-ethical/620769/38 "2012-05-08T03:32:28Z")
> [@Omar\_Little](#): > > I actually think it’s cruel to keep any animal confined in a house. As one poster mentioned birds were meant to fly…and cats and dogs were meant to work and roam. People that keep pets do these animals a disservice in my opinion. A cat likes a relatively small territory. Once it has room to find a mate, room to be alone, a warm private place to snooze and plenty of food, it’s happy as can be. Farm cats will live out their entire lives in the area around a barn, even tho they could travel away if they wanted too. A house- assuming the cat has places to hide- is plenty big enough. ---
**Author:** ![Bad\_News\_Baboon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/5fc32e/32.png) [@Bad\_News\_Baboon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bad_News_Baboon)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2012, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bird-ownership-ethical/620769/39 "2012-05-08T05:36:56Z")
I’m curious - for those with non-caged birds. Do they just poop anywhere in the house or are they trained to use one spot? ---
**Author:** ![maggenpye](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecc23a/32.png) [@maggenpye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/maggenpye)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2012, 6:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bird-ownership-ethical/620769/40 "2012-05-08T06:41:02Z")
> [@Bad\_News\_Baboon](#): > > I’m curious - for those with non-caged birds. Do they just poop anywhere in the house or are they trained to use one spot? Mine live with an open cage. They choose to spend 90% of their time in it and another 5% on top of it, playing ‘King of the Castle’. What little time they spend flying is usually to a couple of favoured spots. Because they’re little budgies (parrotlets in the US), the very few transitional poos dry quickly and get vacuumed up. The curtain rails (sometimes the curtains, too) get wiped and the cage gets emptied. All that combined is much less of a chore than cleaning the late cat’s litter box used to be. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bird-ownership-ethical/620769.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bird-ownership-ethical/620769.md?page=3)