# Is Black Face necessarily racist? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 22, 2014, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-black-face-necessarily-racist/686660 "2014-04-22T05:39:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2014, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-black-face-necessarily-racist/686660/201 "2014-04-23T14:09:16Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > Of course there is. In fact, it’s the reason this thread exists. There is no universal cultural context for anything. This would be easy to get away with if Morris dancers were stuck in Brigadoon. They’re not, they show up on Youtube. Sure, no-one in their live audience is going to take offence (or wouldn’t have 30 years ago - demographics change) but nowadays? ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2014, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-black-face-necessarily-racist/686660/202 "2014-04-23T14:12:39Z")
There are probably a great many things out there that would be frightening or perhaps offensive to me just because I don’t understand their context. We can’t reduce everything down to a universal denominator without discarding a lot. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2014, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-black-face-necessarily-racist/686660/203 "2014-04-23T14:14:12Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > The latter (“genuinely trying to copy a skin tone”), by definition, is not “a single very dark tone”. And that’s the thing I am saying is acceptable, with a caveat. Can you give me an example of this “genuinely trying to copy a skin tone”? Because all the examples I can find are, yes, “a single very dark tone” > [@](#): > > Yes of course, and again that is a caricature. So what makes noses caricature but skin tone not? > [@](#): > > But on the all-one-society point, I am living in China right now. Most people I meet here are pretty oblivious to black racial stereotypes. They may ask questions about my skin or hair (I’m mixed-race btw) that in Europe would not be considered acceptable, but no offense is intended and the questions come from a kind of innocent curiosity. That really, really doesn’t get them a pass in my book (after they’ve been told _the first time_ that it’s not on - you _are_ telling them it’s not on, right?) Not in the modern world. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2014, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-black-face-necessarily-racist/686660/204 "2014-04-23T14:20:35Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > ‘Moor’s Head’ is racist now? _Seriously??_ Short version - depends on how it’s drawn. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2014, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-black-face-necessarily-racist/686660/205 "2014-04-23T14:21:43Z")
**MrDibble** , can you tell me how the modern world should resolve the issue discussed in [this](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=658693)thread? It’s the one I linked earlier - and the situation is: [ul] [li]The term ‘Paki’ is horribly racist in the UK[/li][li]The same term is just a neutral descriptor elsewhere[/li][/ul] ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2014, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-black-face-necessarily-racist/686660/206 "2014-04-23T14:23:58Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > We can’t reduce everything down to a universal denominator without discarding a lot. We don’t have to discard\* all \*cultural uniqueness in order to develop a universal value that says “Hey, these groups of people have historically been oppressed, and one of the ways that was done was by reducing them to a cypher based on skin colour. Maybe that’s not OK anymore?” ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2014, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-black-face-necessarily-racist/686660/207 "2014-04-23T14:27:29Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > We don’t have to discard\* all \*cultural uniqueness in order to develop a universal value that says “Hey, these groups of people have historically been oppressed, and one of the ways that was done was by reducing them to a cypher based on skin colour. Maybe that’s not OK anymore?” Sure, but it seems like we’re saying we also need to do that _merely because someone might misunderstand us as reducing them to a cypher based on skin colour_, regardless of our intent. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2014, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-black-face-necessarily-racist/686660/208 "2014-04-23T14:28:52Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > **MrDibble** , can you tell me how the modern world should resolve the issue discussed in [this](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=658693)thread? > > It’s the one I linked earlier - and the situation is: > [ul] > [li]The term ‘Paki’ is horribly racist in the UK[/li][li]The same term is just a neutral descriptor elsewhere[/li][/ul] Personally, I’d say the rest of the world should suck it up and stop using the term, myself. I mean, ‘Jap’ isn’t a South African pejorative but you won’t catch me using it. And I’ve given up on ‘white trash’ and ‘hillbilly’ after interactions here, even though those aren’t the native epithets for poor Whites. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2014, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-black-face-necessarily-racist/686660/209 "2014-04-23T14:30:29Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > Sure, but it seems like we’re saying we also need to do that _merely because someone might misunderstand us as reducing them to a cypher based on skin colour_, regardless of our intent. No, I’m not saying that. But I _am_ saying _every_ instance of using skin colour to signify “Of African Extraction”\* is\* such a reduction. Every last one. But that doesn’t mean every time\* it looks like\* that’s what’s happening, it is the case - I’ve allowed that it _might_ not be the case for Border Morris, for instance (although I doubt it, myself) ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2014, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-black-face-necessarily-racist/686660/210 "2014-04-23T14:30:40Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Personally, I’d say the rest of the world should suck it up and stop using the term, myself. That’s what I thought (when I blundered into that thread). Read the thread. It turns out that one of the places where ‘Paki’ is neutral, is Pakistan. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2014, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-black-face-necessarily-racist/686660/211 "2014-04-23T14:37:26Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > No, I’m not saying that. But I _am_ saying _every_ instance of using skin colour to signify “Of African Extraction”\* is\* such a reduction. Every last one. How is the term ‘black’ at all acceptable, in this case? > [@](#): > > But that doesn’t mean every time\* it looks like\* that’s what’s happening, it is the case - I’ve allowed that it _might_ not be the case for Border Morris, for instance (although I doubt it, myself) Fair enough ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2014, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-black-face-necessarily-racist/686660/212 "2014-04-23T14:39:25Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > That’s what I thought (when I blundered into that thread). > > Read the thread. It turns out that one of the places where ‘Paki’ is neutral, is Pakistan. And often also in discussion between Pakistanis in the UK, though rarely with outsiders (except for my generation and older who was here in the UK before the epithet became abusive- they use it more freely.) ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2014, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-black-face-necessarily-racist/686660/213 "2014-04-23T14:43:36Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > That’s what I thought (when I blundered into that thread). > > Read the thread. It turns out that one of the places where ‘Paki’ is neutral, is Pakistan. I understand this. And they’re welcome to use it in-group, like ‘nigger’. But I won’t use it, and I’m not in the UK, I’m sure it’s pretty neutral here too. Common decency stops me. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2014, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-black-face-necessarily-racist/686660/214 "2014-04-23T14:44:19Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Can you give me an example of this “genuinely trying to copy a skin tone”? Because all the examples I can find are, yes, “a single very dark tone” Well first of all say whether you think such an attempt would be racist or not. Otherwise it’s moot anyway. > [@](#): > > So what makes noses caricature but skin tone not? I made it very clear. Noses are a caricature, if they are a caricature i.e. not trying to accurately depict the appearance of an individual. Skin tone is also a caricature if it’s a caricature i.e. not trying to accurately depict the skin tone of an individual. > [@](#): > > That really, really doesn’t get them a pass in my book (after they’ve been told _the first time_ that it’s not on - you _are_ telling them it’s not on, right?) Not in the modern world. I wasn’t offended and no offense was intended, why is it not on? Why should I want to mould China into the condition of the West on this issue? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2014, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-black-face-necessarily-racist/686660/215 "2014-04-23T14:45:48Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > How is the term ‘black’ at all acceptable, in this case? Shared language to ease understanding? It’s not my preferred term by any means (for one thing, it distinctly lacks clarity) and I tend not to use it off this MB ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2014, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-black-face-necessarily-racist/686660/216 "2014-04-23T14:52:48Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > Well first of all say whether you think such an attempt would be racist or not. Otherwise it’s moot anyway. I _can’t_ say because I’m having difficulty picturing what you mean in my head. > [@](#): > > I made it very clear. > Noses are a caricature, if they are a caricature i.e. not trying to accurately depict the appearance of an individual. > Skin tone is also a caricature if it’s a caricature i.e. not trying to accurately depict the skin tone of an individual. And we’re not discussing making up a White person to accurately depict the skin tone of a particular African individual, are we? > [@](#): > > I wasn’t offended and no offense was intended, why is it not on? You weren’t offended being treated as an exhibit? Good for you. I would be. If someone tried to touch my hair because it’s afro-textured, they’d get such an earful. > [@](#): > > Why should I want to mould China into the condition of the West on this issue? Because the attitude of the West (well, the enlightened parts of it)\* is the right one\*. I’m sorry, but treating Black people as natural curiosities kind of should be dumped into the dirtbin of history. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2014, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-black-face-necessarily-racist/686660/217 "2014-04-23T14:54:11Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > I tend not to use it off this MB By this I mean that I tend to use terms with much more specificity, such as “Bantu” or “Congolese” or “Mr Smith”, and my default everyday term for a South African Black is “African” (which, yes, excludes all non-Black Africans, but it’s the term I grew up with) ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2014, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-black-face-necessarily-racist/686660/218 "2014-04-23T15:04:56Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > The whole construction of race is fascinating and far more complex than some simplistic people would like to believe. It is also, to the extent that one chooses to discuss the “reality” of race, off-topic to this thread as I have already noted. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2014, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-black-face-necessarily-racist/686660/219 "2014-04-23T15:09:08Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > I understand this. And they’re welcome to use it in-group, like ‘nigger’. But I won’t use it, and I’m not in the UK, I’m sure it’s pretty neutral here too. Common decency stops me. Point is, there can be no universal, one-size-fits-the-the-whole-world version of acceptability, and it’s not even reasonable to expect people to ‘play safe’ - nobody can know every possible context in which they could be understood. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2014, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-black-face-necessarily-racist/686660/220 "2014-04-23T15:19:04Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > Point is, there can be no universal, one-size-fits-the-the-whole-world version of acceptability, and it’s not even reasonable to expect people to ‘play safe’ - nobody can know every possible context in which they could be understood. And acceptability changes over time. I my life it has been correct to call people in the USA with African heritage ‘Colored People’, Negroes, Blacks, African Americans, People of Color. Two of those terms are now verging on derogatory and who knows what will happen to the later ones in time. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-black-face-necessarily-racist/686660.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-black-face-necessarily-racist/686660.md?page=12)