# Is Black Face necessarily racist? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 22, 2014, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-black-face-necessarily-racist/686660 "2014-04-22T05:39:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 10:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-black-face-necessarily-racist/686660/21 "2014-04-22T10:33:35Z")
Moorish pirates certainly _raided_ Cornwall in the 16th century but I highly doubt there were many, if any living there peacefully - partly because the locals would remember the earlier pirate attacks and partly because, well, the locals in those days tended to be very suspicious of outsiders and foreigners. Also, England was not exactly the world’s most ethnically diverse place in the 16th century so I doubt your average Briton had ever _seen_ a Moor then. On the other hand, Cornwall _has_ been famous for its mines for a long time, and the 16th century miners certainly would come up from under ground covered head to toe in muck, dirt, grime, and so forth. My suggestion would be it is far more likely the dance started as something to do with mining and the miners than Barbary Corsairs settling in Cornwall. ---
**Author:** ![BrightNShiny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@BrightNShiny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrightNShiny)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 10:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-black-face-necessarily-racist/686660/22 "2014-04-22T10:38:04Z")
> [@Wallenstein](#): > > I’m aware the fashion now is to ignore intent and focus only on how it’s perceived by the victim; I personally think that’s misguided and cheapens the debate. Yes, the argument racists use everywhere. > [@](#): > > These dances are not done with racist intent, and they didn’t originate with racist intent. I’m sure you can provide me a cite, right? Because everything I’ve read says that we can only speculate about how the dances originated. But, I don’t know. Maybe you have a time machine or something? > [@](#): > > If the reasons behind the “othering” can be explained (i.e. that it symbolises dust from the mines, or Moorish trading partners), and if there is no negative connotation behind it (i.e. the dark figures are performing the same dance, and not symbolically stealing children etc) then there should be no offence taken. If there’s no othering intended, why bring up the Moors at all? And, I can think of a million ways to represent mine workers without putting them in blackface (they do it all the time in films). Go watch a documentary about mine workers. You’ll see what they actually look like. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 10:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-black-face-necessarily-racist/686660/23 "2014-04-22T10:38:38Z")
> [@BrightNShiny](#): > > Okay, let’s take the OP: > > And… > > So, even though the OP says we have no idea what the origin is, he’s decided that we can rule out racial stereotypes. Based on what? He just said he had no idea what the origins were. > > Now, I’m willing to believe this is a language translation issue. But if the OP understands what he’s written in English, then this is pretty eye-rolling. I don’t believe the two quotations you addressed are in any conflict: > [@Pjen](#): > > It is unknown whether this tradition relates to Moors who worked in Cornwall in the 16th century, or to men coming up from the coal pits, or in fact what the origin is at all. The origin of the Morris blackface traditions are unclear. > [@](#): > > None of the behaviour around the blacking up refers to any racial stereotypes. i.e. The manner in which they are performed does not include any obvious racist behaviours or intent. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 10:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-black-face-necessarily-racist/686660/24 "2014-04-22T10:45:05Z")
> [@BrightNShiny](#): > > And, I can think of a million ways to represent mine workers without putting them in blackface (they do it all the time in films). Go watch a documentary about mine workers. You’ll see what they actually look like. You’re insisting that a centuries-old tradition of obscure origin (that you clearly know almost nothing about, if you’re comparing it to the KKK) be changed because _you think it might be racist_. ---
**Author:** ![BrightNShiny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@BrightNShiny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrightNShiny)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 10:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-black-face-necessarily-racist/686660/25 "2014-04-22T10:45:13Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > I don’t believe the two quotations you addressed are in any conflict: > > The origin of the Morris blackface traditions are unclear. > i.e. The manner in which they are performed does not include any obvious racist behaviours or intent. Man, the convolutions people go through to defend racism are pretty amazing. ---
**Author:** ![BrightNShiny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@BrightNShiny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrightNShiny)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 10:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-black-face-necessarily-racist/686660/26 "2014-04-22T10:46:19Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > You’re insisting that a centuries-old tradition of obscure origin (that you clearly know almost nothing about, if you’re comparing it to the KKK) be changed because _you think it might be racist_. No, that’s clearly not what I’ve said. Do these arguments work at the rally? ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 10:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-black-face-necessarily-racist/686660/27 "2014-04-22T10:50:19Z")
> [@BrightNShiny](#): > > No, that’s clearly not what I’ve said. Do these arguments work at the rally? Seriously? ---
**Author:** ![Wallenstein](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b5a626/32.png) [@Wallenstein](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wallenstein)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 10:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-black-face-necessarily-racist/686660/28 "2014-04-22T10:51:47Z")
> [@BrightNShiny](#): > > No, that’s clearly not what I’ve said. Do these arguments work at the rally? Which rallies? Klan rallies? You realise you’re debating with British posters, about a specifically British issue, and you’re bring in the KKK? I think you may be in the wrong thread? What’s the KKK got to do with 16th century Cornwall? ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 10:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-black-face-necessarily-racist/686660/29 "2014-04-22T10:52:03Z")
> [@BrightNShiny](#): > > Man, the convolutions people go through to defend racism are pretty amazing. I am not a racist. You’re not even trying to understand the thing you’re hating here (which, ironically, is itself a behaviour more commonly associated with racism) ---
**Author:** ![BrightNShiny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@BrightNShiny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrightNShiny)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 10:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-black-face-necessarily-racist/686660/30 "2014-04-22T10:54:38Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > I am not a racist. You’re not even trying to understand the thing you’re hating here (which, ironically, is itself a behaviour more commonly associated with racism) Lol. Oh, please, enlighten me. Let me know how much you’ve studied these presentations. Not Wiki cites. Please let me know about all the research you’ve done into the issue. Make sure to reference all the British historians you’ve read, because we want to make sure they get credit. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 10:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-black-face-necessarily-racist/686660/31 "2014-04-22T10:56:20Z")
OK, I’ll come back with some citations (it will have to be later if you mistrust online sources. Meanwhile, please try to remember that this is GD, not the Pit. ---
**Author:** ![BrightNShiny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@BrightNShiny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrightNShiny)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 10:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-black-face-necessarily-racist/686660/32 "2014-04-22T10:56:37Z")
> [@Wallenstein](#): > > Which rallies? Klan rallies? > > You realise you’re debating with British posters, about a specifically British issue, and you’re bring in the KKK? > > I think you may be in the wrong thread? What’s the KKK got to do with 16th century Cornwall? If he wants to make up strawmen to argue against, then I’m going to make up straw KKK. Would it help if I said UKIP? ---
**Author:** ![Wallenstein](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b5a626/32.png) [@Wallenstein](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wallenstein)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 10:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-black-face-necessarily-racist/686660/33 "2014-04-22T10:57:33Z")
> [@BrightNShiny](#): > > Lol. Oh, please, enlighten me. Let me know how much you’ve studied these presentations. Not Wiki cites. Please let me know about all the research you’ve done into the issue. Make sure to reference all the British historians you’ve read, because we want to make sure they get credit. How about you go first…? Show us your research showing the undeniably racist origins of traditional English morris dancing. ---
**Author:** ![Wallenstein](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b5a626/32.png) [@Wallenstein](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wallenstein)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 10:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-black-face-necessarily-racist/686660/34 "2014-04-22T10:59:20Z")
> [@BrightNShiny](#): > > If he wants to make up strawmen to argue against, then I’m going to make up straw KKK. Would it help if I said UKIP? Um… the fact you’ve conflated UKIP (a recognised mainstream UK political party) with the KKK (a self-avowed racist organisation from the USA) suggests you are not taking this seriously. I’ll report your post and see whether the Mods think this behavior is appropriate for Great Debates. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 10:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-black-face-necessarily-racist/686660/35 "2014-04-22T10:59:37Z")
> [@BrightNShiny](#): > > If he wants to make up strawmen to argue against, then I’m going to make up straw KKK. Would it help if I said UKIP? What strawman, please? And really, please stop accusing me of racism. KKK and UKIP are a bunch of fuckwits (the latter, in a different way). ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 11:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-black-face-necessarily-racist/686660/36 "2014-04-22T11:03:52Z")
> [@BrightNShiny](#): > > Lol. Oh, please, enlighten me. Let me know how much you’ve studied these presentations. Not Wiki cites. Please let me know about all the research you’ve done into the issue. Make sure to reference all the British historians you’ve read, because we want to make sure they get credit. I can’t speak for the others, but a very edited selection of some of the titles I’ve read as part of my interest in the history of the British Empire include: - _The Scramble for Africa_ by Thomas Pakenham (Earl of Longford) - _The Washing of the Spears_ by Donald R Morris - _The Honourable Company_ by John Key - _The Victorians_ (and _After The Victorians_) by A N Wilson - _The Indian Mutiny_ by Saul David - _Lawrence of Arabia_ by Jeremy Wilson - _The Seven Pillars of Wisdom_ by Colonel T E Lawrence - _Pax Britannica_ and _Farewell the Trumpets_ by Jan Morris - _King Leopold’s Ghost_ by Adam Hochschild - _Guns, Germs and Steel_ by Jared Diamond ---
**Author:** ![BrightNShiny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@BrightNShiny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrightNShiny)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 11:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-black-face-necessarily-racist/686660/37 "2014-04-22T11:04:38Z")
> [@Wallenstein](#): > > How about you go first…? Show us your research showing the undeniably racist origins of traditional English morris dancing. No, I’m not going to, because I’ve been through this argument before. A lot of times. See my original post in this thread. It’s a pointless endeavor, because racists are going to do what they gotta do. I’m done with trying to be nice to racists. I’m done with trying to convince people to have some basic humanity. **Mangetout** , before you start doing your research, this is what I’ll say to you. If you can provide me clear evidence that this isn’t racist (and I’ll be fair in that respect) that this isn’t racist, I’ll listen. But I’m going to check out the history of anyone you cite, so if I see that someone you cite has a history of racist behavior, then I’m not going to be inclined to listen to it. ---
**Author:** ![BrightNShiny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@BrightNShiny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrightNShiny)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 11:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-black-face-necessarily-racist/686660/38 "2014-04-22T11:06:25Z")
> [@Wallenstein](#): > > Um… the fact you’ve conflated UKIP (a recognised mainstream UK political party) with the KKK (a self-avowed racist organisation from the USA) suggests you are not taking this seriously. > > I’ll report your post and see whether the Mods think this behavior is appropriate for Great Debates. Knock yourself out, dude. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 11:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-black-face-necessarily-racist/686660/39 "2014-04-22T11:09:30Z")
For what it’s worth, I don’t think the Morris dancers _are_ wearing Blackface as such, anymore than a performer dressed as Kali is in Blackface. Blackface isn’t just having a blackened face, it’s the whole getup. Having said that, if there’s a tradition (and I understand it possibly varies from troupe to troupe) that those wearing the blackened faces are supposed to be Moors rather than Cornish miners\*, yes, that’s racist. It’s _always_ racist when white people dress up as caricatures of other races in any non-satirical context (and translating “brown skin” to “corked face” _is_ a caricature). And there’s [theories](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Border_Morris#Or_19th_Century_racist_origins.3F) that it might be more directly racist than any “Medieval Moors” tradition. And yes, Zwaarte Piet is racist as well. If he’s supposed to be a Black man, hire a damn Black man, they’re not in short supply in the Netherlands. \*note that the blackened faces are more common in the Border Morris tradition, which isn’t from Cornwall, so fie on that explanation. ---
**Author:** ![BrightNShiny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@BrightNShiny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrightNShiny)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 11:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-black-face-necessarily-racist/686660/40 "2014-04-22T11:10:10Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > What strawman, please? > > And really, please stop accusing me of racism. KKK and UKIP are a bunch of fuckwits (the latter, in a different way). You said I didn’t know anything about this tradition (maybe not a strawman, but certainly something you made up). Nothing I posted indicated that I was unfamiliar with this tradition. I posted that I’m tired of having the same argument over and over, and I explained why I’m tired. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-black-face-necessarily-racist/686660.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-black-face-necessarily-racist/686660.md?page=3)