# Is Black Face necessarily racist? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 22, 2014, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-black-face-necessarily-racist/686660 "2014-04-22T05:39:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![BrightNShiny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@BrightNShiny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrightNShiny)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 12:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-black-face-necessarily-racist/686660/61 "2014-04-22T12:16:24Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > So, let’s pretend for a moment that the tradition of Morris Dancers in blackface is absolutely, irrefutably proven to be a racist 16th century version of a Black & White minstrel show. > > Are you _really_ saying your comments on that eventuality would not involve a call for the traditional dances to end because they were racist? I live in the US, and the US government is not allowed to ban shows just because they are racially offensive. Where do you live? Is the government allowed to ban racially offensive shows there? ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 12:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-black-face-necessarily-racist/686660/62 "2014-04-22T12:18:28Z")
Been busy IRL. Sorry for the apparent drive-by. My take is that it may be racialist- based on race (Moors etc) but it probably does not have enough intent to be racist- based on race and generally objectionable. Many things are based on race (not that race is a well defined object) but have little in them to complain about. Many other things are based on race and are socially unacceptable. I certainly accept that the Western world needs to give due credence to claims of racism (because of its lamentable history over chattel slavery and social beliefs consequent on that) but causes such as this are responsible for considerable racist blow-back. Lancashire where this is happening is one of the most racially fraught areas of the UK with covert war between groups of ethnic Sub-continent Asians and ethnic Britons (or at least people who claim those appellations.) Challenging such rather silly traditions and making a big issue out of it feeds the white racism endemic in the area. Ignoring it and accepting that in the modern world there will be interesting occurrences at the boundary between different social groups may be the best policy. Calling it racist and seeing it as comparable to disgusting overt racism is possibly counter-productive. ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-black-face-necessarily-racist/686660/63 "2014-04-22T12:21:16Z")
> [@BrightNShiny](#): > > I live in the US, and the US government is not allowed to ban shows just because they are racially offensive. Where do you live? Is the government allowed to ban racially offensive shows there? That’s not what I asked you. ---
**Author:** ![BrightNShiny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@BrightNShiny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrightNShiny)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-black-face-necessarily-racist/686660/64 "2014-04-22T12:23:10Z")
> [@Wallenstein](#): > > You won’t share your cites, and you’re unwilling to engage with any respect, so what exactly are you in this thread for?? I’m in this thread to make clear that I think it’s racist. And even though I’m a minority, my opinion counts. And I’m more then fed up with having to explain why things that are obviously racist are, in fact racist. And I’m tired of having to be the one to always provide cites and provide evidence. Let the people who are claiming it isn’t racist provide evidence for a change. Let the ones defending racism have to provide the cites. Because if someone can look at this situation and not think something’s wrong, there’s no amount of cites I can provide that can convince them. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 12:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-black-face-necessarily-racist/686660/65 "2014-04-22T12:24:30Z")
> [@Wallenstein](#): > > I said it might be linked to the Moors, but it could be linked to all sorts of other things… miners covered in dirt, farm workers covered in soil etc. It’s quite likely that all of these are little more than educated guesses on the part of anthropologists and historians, made in the absence of any firm leads. IMO, it seems more likely to be linked to storytelling or ritual archetypes representing some sort of folkloric '‘mysterious stranger’ character - along with the Green Man etc (or Spring Heeled Jack, The Elder Mother, Silkies, The Church Grim, etc.) ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-black-face-necessarily-racist/686660/66 "2014-04-22T12:26:37Z")
> [@BrightNShiny](#): > > I’m in this thread to make clear that I think it’s racist. And even though I’m a minority, my opinion counts. And I’m more then fed up with having to explain why things that are obviously racist are, in fact racist. And I’m tired of having to be the one to always provide cites and provide evidence. Let the people who are claiming it isn’t racist provide evidence for a change. Let the ones defending racism have to provide the cites. Because if someone can look at this situation and not think something’s wrong, there’s no amount of cites I can provide that can convince them. Yours is the assertion. Yours is the burden of proof. ---
**Author:** ![BrightNShiny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@BrightNShiny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrightNShiny)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-black-face-necessarily-racist/686660/67 "2014-04-22T12:26:49Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > That’s not what I asked you. Rescind your comments about “bans” in post #55, and make it clear that we’re not talking about bans, and that I never mentioned the word “ban,” and then I will take your last post as independent from post #55. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-black-face-necessarily-racist/686660/68 "2014-04-22T12:28:02Z")
> [@BrightNShiny](#): > > Okay, let’s take the OP: > > And… > > So, even though the OP says we have no idea what the origin is, he’s decided that we can rule out racial stereotypes. Based on what? He just said he had no idea what the origins were. > > Now, I’m willing to believe this is a language translation issue. But if the OP understands what he’s written in English, then this is pretty eye-rolling. I stand by my terminology. Things can be based on race (whatever that is) without being stereotypical. Now if the black-face was seen as more foolish or as less valued than the other players, that would be stereotyping, and devaluing, but mere greasepaint does not imply that. I have few problems with white actors playing Othello the Moor (with or without greasepaint), and even fewer with Modern non-white skinned British actors playing historical characters in dramas where someone of their rthnic heritage would never have been so- we recently had an English Actress of Afro-Caribbean background (dark enough and with believable facial features to play the child of two Jamaicans in a previous series) playing Guinevere. Race and ethnicity is not everything. ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 12:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-black-face-necessarily-racist/686660/69 "2014-04-22T12:29:20Z")
> [@BrightNShiny](#): > > Rescind your comments about “bans” in post #55, and make it clear that we’re not talking about bans, and that I never mentioned the word “ban,” and then I will take your last post as independent from post #55. How about you rescind your comments denouncing many of the participants in this thread as racists and/or Klan members first? ---
**Author:** ![BrightNShiny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@BrightNShiny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrightNShiny)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 12:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-black-face-necessarily-racist/686660/70 "2014-04-22T12:29:28Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > Yours is the assertion. Yours is the burden of proof. Oh, what happened? I thought you were going to look up cites for us? Now you’re going to try to get out of it, aren’t you? These dances are racist. People who support them are racist. But, you could actually prove me wrong. Why not? I mean, after all, if it’s so easy to prove that these dances aren’t racist, the proof should be easily found, right? ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 12:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-black-face-necessarily-racist/686660/71 "2014-04-22T12:29:55Z")
> [@BrightNShiny](#): > > Rescind your comments about “bans” in post #55, and make it clear that we’re not talking about bans, and that I never mentioned the word “ban,” and then I will take your last post as independent from post #55. Really? You’re the one asking for retractions, in this thread? ---
**Author:** ![BrightNShiny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@BrightNShiny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrightNShiny)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-black-face-necessarily-racist/686660/72 "2014-04-22T12:30:37Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > How about you rescind your comments denouncing many of the participants in this thread as racists and/or Klan members first? Lol. Not even trying to be coherent are you? ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-black-face-necessarily-racist/686660/73 "2014-04-22T12:30:45Z")
> [@BrightNShiny](#): > > Rescind your comments about “bans” in post #55, and make it clear that we’re not talking about bans, and that I never mentioned the word “ban,” and then I will take your last post as independent from post #55. Maybe you should read more carefully the exact words of the post #55. He does not accuse you of doing this but refers to bans being called for- which they have been in this and other cases. ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-black-face-necessarily-racist/686660/74 "2014-04-22T12:30:51Z")
> [@BrightNShiny](#): > > I’m in this thread to make clear that I think it’s racist. And even though I’m a minority, my opinion counts. And I’m more then fed up with having to explain why things that are obviously racist are, in fact racist. If it was was so obviously racist you wouldn’t have to explain it. The fact you do suggests it’s not as obvious a situation as you claim. > [@](#): > > And I’m tired of having to be the one to always provide cites and provide evidence. Let the people who are claiming it isn’t racist provide evidence for a change. Let the ones defending racism have to provide the cites. As **Mangetout** explained, it doesn’t work like that. You can’t expect people prove a negative. The current default setting for this scenario is “Not Racist” and it’s up to you, the one making a claim to the contrary, to provide evidence to support that stance. > [@](#): > > Because if someone can look at this situation and not think something’s wrong, there’s no amount of cites I can provide that can convince them. Or maybe - and I just want to throw this out there as a suggestion - it’s because there isn’t anything wrong with it, or at least nothing wrong enough to get worked up about over, as **Pjen** suggests? ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 12:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-black-face-necessarily-racist/686660/75 "2014-04-22T12:33:23Z")
> [@BrightNShiny](#): > > Oh, what happened? I thought you were going to look up cites for us? Now you’re going to try to get out of it, aren’t you? Explained already in post #54. I’m obviously not going to be able to uncover the true history of these characters, if generations of professional historians and anthropologists have already come up empty. I’m fairly sure, however, I can demonstrate that the manner in which these dances are performed does not include any obvious racist behaviours or intent. > [@](#): > > These dances are racist. People who support them are racist. So you have repeatedly and strenuously asserted. Prove it. > [@](#): > > But, you could actually prove me wrong. Why not? I mean, after all, if it’s so easy to prove that these dances aren’t racist, the proof should be easily found, right? You’re asking me to prove a negative. ---
**Author:** ![Wallenstein](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b5a626/32.png) [@Wallenstein](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wallenstein)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-black-face-necessarily-racist/686660/76 "2014-04-22T12:34:08Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > It’s quite likely that all of these are little more than educated guesses on the part of anthropologists and historians, made in the absence of any firm leads. > > IMO, it seems more likely to be linked to storytelling or ritual archetypes representing some sort of folkloric '‘mysterious stranger’ character - along with the Green Man etc (or Spring Heeled Jack, The Elder Mother, Silkies, The Church Grim, etc.) The name doesn’t help… not hard to make the link between “morris” and moorish". Part of the issue may be that this mysterious stranger, effectively the Ur-Other, has tended to be dark (as an obvious counterpoint to light) but without any specific racial overtones… Day vs Night, Light vs Dark, Clean vs Dirty, Fresh vs Soiled and so on. The problem comes when you introduce another group into society who are also given the role of “other”, but this time specifically due to their skin colour. Then it’s not unreasonable for people to make a superficial link between the Ur-Other of the Morris, and the specifically racialised Other. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-black-face-necessarily-racist/686660/77 "2014-04-22T12:36:09Z")
If a non-white person paints his face white to perform as a clown, is that racist? ---
**Author:** ![BrightNShiny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@BrightNShiny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrightNShiny)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-black-face-necessarily-racist/686660/78 "2014-04-22T12:36:14Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > I stand by my terminology. Things can be based on race (whatever that is) without being stereotypical. > > Now if the black-face was seen as more foolish or as less valued than the other players, that would be stereotyping, and devaluing, but mere greasepaint does not imply that. > > I have few problems with white actors playing Othello the Moor (with or without greasepaint), and even fewer with Modern non-white skinned British actors playing historical characters in dramas where someone of their rthnic heritage would never have been so- we recently had an English Actress of Afro-Caribbean background (dark enough and with believable facial features to play the child of two Jamaicans in a previous series) playing Guinevere. > > Race and ethnicity is not everything. Can I ask you where you are? I’ve been told repeatedly in this thread that my opinion doesn’t count because I’m not in the UK. So, for us to take your post seriously, according to posters in this thread, you have to be in the UK. Don’t worry. I’m sure if you’re not in the UK, a bunch of posters here will rush in to tell you that your opinion is irrelevant simply for the fact that you are not in the UK. That apparently is normal in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![BrightNShiny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@BrightNShiny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrightNShiny)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-black-face-necessarily-racist/686660/79 "2014-04-22T12:37:23Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > If a non-white person paints his face white to perform as a clown, is that racist? No, but a person asking this question probably is racist. ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-black-face-necessarily-racist/686660/80 "2014-04-22T12:39:24Z")
Putting on my searching cap, I can find quite a few instances of “blackface/darkie/blackmoore” iconography (and such) in British culture. [Mummer’s/Darkie Day](https://www.google.ca/search?q=Mummer%27s+Day&rlz=1C1ASUT_enCA555CA555&espv=2&es_sm=93&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=dVhWU8y-OrT22QX4uIGoAQ&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAQ&biw=1366&bih=653), [Britannia Coco-nut Dancers](https://www.google.ca/search?q=Britannia+Coco-nut+Dancers&rlz=1C1ASUT_enCA555CA555&oq=Britannia+Coco-nut+Dancers&aqs=chrome..69i57.122466j0j9&sourceid=chrome&espv=2&es_sm=93&ie=UTF-8), [Gollys](https://www.google.ca/search?rlz=1C1ASUT_enCA555CA555&espv=2&es_sm=93&q=Golliwog&spell=1&sa=X&ei=qFlWU8bnDq6s2AWy4oH4Bw&ved=0CCgQBSgA&biw=1366&bih=653), [TV/movie characters](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papa_Lazarou). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-black-face-necessarily-racist/686660.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-black-face-necessarily-racist/686660.md?page=5)