# Is Black Face necessarily racist? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 22, 2014, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-black-face-necessarily-racist/686660 "2014-04-22T05:39:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![BrightNShiny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@BrightNShiny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrightNShiny)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-black-face-necessarily-racist/686660/81 "2014-04-22T12:39:40Z")
Ok, I’m probably going to get banned for that last one, but eh, I don’t really care. The posters in this thread really ought to be ashamed of themselves. I got no problem going out on this note. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-black-face-necessarily-racist/686660/82 "2014-04-22T12:40:43Z")
> [@BrightNShiny](#): > > No, but a person asking this question probably is racist. That’s another warning. You will stop this behavior immediately or your posting privileges may be revoked. ---
**Author:** ![Wallenstein](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b5a626/32.png) [@Wallenstein](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wallenstein)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-black-face-necessarily-racist/686660/83 "2014-04-22T12:41:29Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > If a non-white person paints his face white to perform as a clown, is that racist? I don’t want to appear to mock this position by over-simplifying it, but I understand the argument goes that only if they are in a society where there is an inherent structural inequality which works against white people. In our current society, where white people benefit from structural privilege, they cannot be the victims of racism as you describe. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-black-face-necessarily-racist/686660/84 "2014-04-22T12:42:18Z")
> [@Wallenstein](#): > > The name doesn’t help… not hard to make the link between “morris” and moorish". I guess - it looks like there is an etymological connection, but it’s unlikely that these things sprang into existence fully-formed - some of them seem to incorporate much older elements of folklore and tradition. > [@](#): > > Part of the issue may be that this mysterious stranger, effectively the Ur-Other, has tended to be dark (as an obvious counterpoint to light) but without any specific racial overtones… Day vs Night, Light vs Dark, Clean vs Dirty, Fresh vs Soiled and so on. Some of this (not all, I’m sure) will be attributable to long winter nights, frugal washing facilities and poor domestic lighting. > [@](#): > > The problem comes when you introduce another group into society who are also given the role of “other”, but this time specifically due to their skin colour. Then it’s not unreasonable for people to make a superficial link between the Ur-Other of the Morris, and the specifically racialised Other. Agreed, but the key word here is _superficial_. ---
**Author:** ![Wallenstein](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b5a626/32.png) [@Wallenstein](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wallenstein)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-black-face-necessarily-racist/686660/85 "2014-04-22T12:44:15Z")
> [@BrightNShiny](#): > > Can I ask you where you are? I’ve been told repeatedly in this thread that my opinion doesn’t count because I’m not in the UK. So, for us to take your post seriously, according to posters in this thread, you have to be in the UK. > > Don’t worry. I’m sure if you’re not in the UK, a bunch of posters here will rush in to tell you that your opinion is irrelevant simply for the fact that you are not in the UK. That apparently is normal in this thread. This is Great Debates… it’s meant to be about more than opinions (that’s what IMHO is for). You can have an opinion but you need to back it up with evidence, which you’re clearly unable to do. Evidence in this context can be direct observation of people who engage in Morris dancing in the UK (since the thread is about whether Morris dancing in the UK is racist or not). ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-black-face-necessarily-racist/686660/86 "2014-04-22T12:45:24Z")
> [@BrightNShiny](#): > > Can I ask you where you are? I’ve been told repeatedly in this thread that my opinion doesn’t count because I’m not in the UK. So, for us to take your post seriously, according to posters in this thread, you have to be in the UK. > > Don’t worry. I’m sure if you’re not in the UK, a bunch of posters here will rush in to tell you that your opinion is irrelevant simply for the fact that you are not in the UK. That apparently is normal in this thread. I live in Scotland, born in England, educated in the USA. I have darker skin than the usual Brit (my father was often mistaken for being Indian and my Grandmother was even darker, but we have no discernable non-Brit ancestors for 7-18 generations. ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-black-face-necessarily-racist/686660/87 "2014-04-22T12:47:25Z")
> [@orcenio](#): > > Putting on my searching cap, I can find quite a few instances of “blackface/darkie/blackmoore” iconography (and such) in British culture. Blackface appeared in acceptable British TV until quite recently (It was in _The Goodies_ in the very late 1970s or early 80s and also in _Jeeves & Wooster_ in the mid-1990s, however with some context in that instance). I don’t think many people are going to argue that Blackface isn’t considered racist in most contexts nowadays - but “Blackface” is generally understood to have a pretty specific definition and “minstrel show” connotations. I don’t think the average punter would consider Morris Dancers to meet the definiton of “Blackface (Racist)”, if that makes sense, because it’s missing the key element of parodying/lampooning/mocking black people - at least as far as anyone can tell at present. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-black-face-necessarily-racist/686660/88 "2014-04-22T12:47:26Z")
> [@BrightNShiny](#): > > No, but a person asking this question probably is racist. Now that is ridiculous. Have you never heard of playing devil’s advocate, or even of just questioning a subject to discern what really is the case. I am certainly not racist in negative terms but feel quite happy asking complex questions about race and ethnic identity. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-black-face-necessarily-racist/686660/89 "2014-04-22T12:51:39Z")
> [@Wallenstein](#): > > I don’t want to appear to mock this position by over-simplifying it, but I understand the argument goes that only if they are in a society where there is an inherent structural inequality which works against white people. In our current society, where white people benefit from structural privilege, they cannot be the victims of racism as you describe. It was an earnest question, regardless of how it might have been perceived. Just painting your face (any colour), without intent to be racist, isn’t racist. I don’t think we can really pursue that line of discussion any more though. **BrightNShiny** , you have been very eager to label me a racist in this thread. I really am not. I may be ignorant on many fronts, and it may well be that in my ignorance, I have tacitly supported things that are unacceptable (by not opposing them). If you (or anyone, for that matter) think this is the case, then demonstrate it to me. Show me the error of my ways, but understand that what seems self-evident to you, may not be to me. Evidence will convince me. Assertion that something is obvious, because it seems obvious to you, probably will not. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-black-face-necessarily-racist/686660/90 "2014-04-22T12:57:00Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > Well, I think the issue of people crying “Racism! Ban the ostensibly harmless tradition that doesn’t affect me personally in any way!” has significant impacts from a cultural heritage and even freedom of speech point of view, so in that respect it is an important discussion. Personally, I don’t think “cultural heritage” is a good enough reason to keep racist practices alive. And the presence of racism in society affects everyone, we’re not islands here. And “freedom of speech” is not absolute. Especially [in Europe](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_speech_by_country#United_Kingdom). > [@Pjen](#): > > My take is that it may be racialist- based on race (Moors etc) but it probably does not have enough intent to be racist- based on race and generally objectionable. This is essentially the same “Racial isn’t racist” excuse that some genuine racists use. and it’s bullshit - racialist is racist - uneven power structures even today, and historic abuse, have made it so… > [@Pjen](#): > > I have few problems with white actors playing Othello the Moor (with or without greasepaint) I do (with the greasepaint, that is - I’d have no objection to a White Othello played straight up. > [@](#): > > , and even fewer with Modern non-white skinned British actors playing historical characters in dramas where someone of their rthnic heritage would never have been so There is _no_ part of British history [post-Roman conquest](http://www.theguardian.com/science/2010/feb/26/roman-york-skeleton)where Blacks could be said to _[definitely](http://medievalpoc.tumblr.com/)_ _[never](http://afroeurope.blogspot.com/2010/08/history-of-black-people-in-europe.html)_ have been. > [@](#): > > - we recently had an English Actress of Afro-Caribbean background (dark enough and with believable facial features to play the child of two Jamaicans in a previous series) playing Guinevere. You do understand the difference in power relationships between a Black person playing White, and a White person playing Black, right? Nor was that Guinevere in Whiteface. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-black-face-necessarily-racist/686660/91 "2014-04-22T12:57:47Z")
Given the Japanese claim to racial superiority culturally, intellectually and facially over the Caucasians, perhaps we should take umbrage at their Noh plays - [![](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e6/Noh3.jpg) ](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e6/Noh3.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-black-face-necessarily-racist/686660/92 "2014-04-22T13:00:36Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > Blackface appeared in acceptable British TV until quite recently (It was in _The Goodies_ in the very late 1970s or early 80s and also in _Jeeves & Wooster_ in the mid-1990s, however with some context in that instance). > > I don’t think many people are going to argue that Blackface isn’t considered racist in most contexts nowadays - but “Blackface” is generally understood to have a pretty specific definition and “minstrel show” connotations. I don’t think the average punter would consider Morris Dancers to meet the definiton of “Blackface (Racist)”, if that makes sense, because it’s missing the key element of parodying/lampooning/mocking black people - at least as far as anyone can tell at present. Well, not all Morris dancing is parodying/lampooning/mocking black people, but the blackface Morris dancing is clearly parodying/lampooning/mocking black people. Just because this type of blackface (might) pre-dates minstrel shows doesn’t mean its not also parodying/lampooning/mocking black people; it is. ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-black-face-necessarily-racist/686660/93 "2014-04-22T13:04:10Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Personally, I don’t think “cultural heritage” is a good enough reason to keep racist practices alive. And the presence of racism in society affects everyone, we’re not islands here. Does it? I’m not being facetious here - I just don’t understand how, for example, the Japanese treatment of Koreans in Japan affects, to any significant degree, people who aren’t Japanese or Korean. (I’m not defending the treatment of Koreans by the Japanese, by the way - far from it - just using it as an example of racism which doesn’t seem to have anything to do with people elsewhere, if that makes sense). > [@](#): > > And “freedom of speech” is not absolute. Especially [in Europe](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_speech_by_country#United_Kingdom). I wasn’t thinking so much in the legal/American sense of the term so much as how labelling everything as “racist” has a chilling effect on discussions on the topic, ultimately to everyone’s detriment. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-black-face-necessarily-racist/686660/94 "2014-04-22T13:06:06Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Given the Japanese claim to racial superiority culturally, intellectually and facially over the Caucasians, perhaps we should take umbrage at their Noh plays - > > [http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e6/Noh3.jpg](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e6/Noh3.jpg) You realise that Japanese are as pale as most “Caucasians”, right? ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-black-face-necessarily-racist/686660/95 "2014-04-22T13:06:12Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > I have few problems with white actors playing Othello the Moor (with or without greasepaint), and even fewer with Modern non-white skinned British actors playing historical characters in dramas where someone of their rthnic heritage would never have been so- we recently had an English Actress of Afro-Caribbean background (dark enough and with believable facial features to play the child of two Jamaicans in a previous series) playing Guinevere. And Denzel Washington playing Don Pedro (it has been that long? Agh I’m ancient!). I’m reasonably sure most of the ladies who have played Madame Butterfly or the young ladies in the Mikado weren’t Japanese either. I would rather use the first to discuss how much is or is not his color an important element in the character of Don Pedro than rend my clothes over Brannagh not choosing a Spaniard (or an Italian, or… you know, someone who has the looks I’d expect of a Middle Ages Don Pedro of Aragon), but the reply from Americans who think anything related to race is racist is “that’s because your people have never been oppressed”. AFAICT, it’s one of those cases where the majority of the noise comes from those who have no interest in listening. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-black-face-necessarily-racist/686660/96 "2014-04-22T13:08:08Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > I wasn’t thinking so much in the legal/American sense of the term so much as how labelling everything as “racist” has a chilling effect on discussions on the topic, ultimately to everyone’s detriment. I think being reluctant to call out actual racism for that reason is _even more_ detrimental, myself. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-black-face-necessarily-racist/686660/97 "2014-04-22T13:11:04Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Personally, I don’t think “cultural heritage” is a good enough reason to keep racist practices alive. And the presence of racism in society affects everyone, we’re not islands here. > > And “freedom of speech” is not absolute. Especially [in Europe](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_speech_by_country#United_Kingdom). > > This is essentially the same “Racial isn’t racist” excuse that some genuine racists use. and it’s bullshit - racialist is racist - uneven power structures even today, and historic abuse, have made it so… > > I do (with the greasepaint, that is - I’d have no objection to a White Othello played straight up.There is _no_ part of British history post-Roman conquest where Blacks could be said to _[definitely](http://medievalpoc.tumblr.com/)_ _[never](http://afroeurope.blogspot.com/2010/08/history-of-black-people-in-europe.html)_ have been.You do understand the difference in power relationships between a Black person playing White, and a White person playing Black, right? > > Nor was that Guinevere in Whiteface. What a mish-mash of ideas. There is a distinct difference between racism (use of language or action that is based on the exercise of power or control of one group over another and may or may not have the intent of harming the other group) and racialism (treatment of different cultural groups differently according to their real needs.) Under the latter heading come assistance to racial and ethnic groups for their group history of being denied entry to education or opportunity. Different criteria for certain diseases that have an ethnic bias (sickle cell anaemia in Mediterranean and Afro-Caribbean people, diabetes in people from the sub continent, alcohol related diseases from people of oriental origin). Recognition of behaviours based on ethnic or cultural background that should be tolerated in a just society. and so on. > **[racialism](https://www.thefreedictionary.com/racialism)** > > Definition, Synonyms, Translations of racialism by The Free Dictionary Recognition of Race, Culture, ethnic identity etc is different from racism. In a tolerant society there must be compromise, and sometimes freedom of action and freedom of speech are more important than avoidance of racism and certainly of racialism. I see little problem with Othello being in black face , else historical accuracy and the thrust of the play is l;ost if Othello is not obviously the Moor, and we cannot require that the actor be ethnically correct- that would be ridiculous and racist. Wat next, pretend Shylock was a committed Christian and non-Semitic? As to people of colour playing characters in British history when it is obviously anachronistic, I find that rather wonderful and quite enjoy the discomfort it causes racists, but it is the other side of the Othello coin. ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-black-face-necessarily-racist/686660/98 "2014-04-22T13:11:39Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > I think being reluctant to call out actual racism for that reason is _even more_ detrimental, myself. I can understand where you’re coming from - I just think if people call “Racism!” over comparatively benign things (such as Morris Dancers), it lessens its impact when it’s used against things that really are the bad, negatively-affects-particular-people type of racism. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-black-face-necessarily-racist/686660/99 "2014-04-22T13:12:10Z")
> [@orcenio](#): > > Well, not all Morris dancing is parodying/lampooning/mocking black people, but the blackface Morris dancing is clearly parodying/lampooning/mocking black people. > > Just because this type of blackface (might) pre-dates minstrel shows doesn’t mean its not also parodying/lampooning/mocking black people; it is. Is it though? Can you show your workings for this conclusion? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-black-face-necessarily-racist/686660/100 "2014-04-22T13:14:24Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > And Denzel Washington playing Don Pedro (it has been that long? Agh I’m ancient!). I What’s wrong with a [noble Black Spaniard](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jan_Mostaert#Portrait_of_an_African_Man)? It wasn’t _that_ long after the _Reconquista_, after all. A better question would be to wonder how he could be the brother of Keanu 🙂 (Or Duke of Aragon, in a post-_Reconquista_ Spain). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-black-face-necessarily-racist/686660.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-black-face-necessarily-racist/686660.md?page=6)