# Is Black Face necessarily racist? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 22, 2014, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-black-face-necessarily-racist/686660 "2014-04-22T05:39:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-black-face-necessarily-racist/686660/121 "2014-04-22T13:41:26Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > What, pray tell, are “racial characteristics”? It’s the thick lips and curly hair, isn’t it? My racial characteristics are middle coloured skin (not African, not Nordic), large nose with roundish eyes (not oriental), tall and very straight hair that once was brown, but now grey. Anyone would identify me as a dark skinned European. Stop the bullshit and go away. ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-black-face-necessarily-racist/686660/122 "2014-04-22T13:42:25Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > Nobody is questioning whether painting your face results in a differently-coloured face. That is obvious. > > I was asking you to demonstrate that this is done to mock black people - your assertion was: Are you going to **define me** into exhaustion/submission or something? Blacking your face is a parody of people with black skin. Full stop. Parodying people with black skin is mocking them. Full stop. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-black-face-necessarily-racist/686660/123 "2014-04-22T13:42:30Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Afro-Carribbean is a race, now? Sub-Continental Asian is a race now? > > And are Turks, Arabs and Indians tested [at the same time](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Sickle_cell_distribution.jpg) as those Afro-Caribbeans? If not, yes, racist. Race is ill defined. All of the above are possible racial descriptions. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-black-face-necessarily-racist/686660/124 "2014-04-22T13:46:46Z")
> [@orcenio](#): > > Are you going to **define me** into exhaustion/submission or something? > > Blacking your face is a parody of people with black skin. Full stop. Parodying people with black skin is mocking them. Full stop. That may be your view (Try IMHO Forum) but it is not factual. It depends what you mean by Parody and whether imitation or Portrayal is always Parody. Do you believe that all Portrayal is necessarily Parody. Make your point, don’t state your opinion. ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-black-face-necessarily-racist/686660/125 "2014-04-22T13:49:51Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > So women playing men and men playing women in theatre and film is parody, not appropriate use of gender in making an artistic point? > > All imitation is parody? > > I think not, except in the mind of an “inverted racist”- one who cannot cope with outward display of racial characteristics for purposes other than causing offence. You can call it a silly/good-natured/historical/culturally-important (or whatever) parody; but that’s on you. It still is what it is. Blackface/blackmoor/darkie dancing\*. \*Not all Morris dancing just the [blackfacers](https://www.google.ca/search?q=darkie+Day&rlz=1C1ASUT_enCA555CA555&espv=2&es_sm=93&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=X3NWU77cKYiY2AW67IGIAg&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAQ&biw=1366&bih=653) ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-black-face-necessarily-racist/686660/126 "2014-04-22T13:50:17Z")
Is this offensive? 3 minutes in [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/x3W17Z7ZTVM/hqdefault.jpg "Lenny Henry Live and Unleashed intro scene") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x3W17Z7ZTVM) ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-black-face-necessarily-racist/686660/127 "2014-04-22T13:50:38Z")
> [@orcenio](#): > > Are you going to **define me** into exhaustion/submission or something? No, just looking for someone, anyone, to support the bald assertions that have been made about the Border Morris example of face-blacking, to wit: That it even originates as imitation of naturally dark skinned people. > [@](#): > > Blacking your face is a parody of people with black skin. Full stop. Parodying people with black skin is mocking them. Full stop. Wow. So Dick Van Dyke was mocking black people in the movie _Mary Poppins_? ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-black-face-necessarily-racist/686660/128 "2014-04-22T13:53:16Z")
Or this: [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/HTNfP5Bxjuw/hqdefault.jpg "Lenny Henry & Rowan Atkinson - Michael Jackson spoof") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HTNfP5Bxjuw) ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-black-face-necessarily-racist/686660/129 "2014-04-22T13:59:08Z")
> [@orcenio](#): > > You can call it a silly/good-natured/historical/culturally-important (or whatever) parody; but that’s on you. It still is what it is. Blackface/blackmoor/darkie dancing\*. > > \*Not all Morris dancing just the [blackfacers](https://www.google.ca/search?q=darkie+Day&rlz=1C1ASUT_enCA555CA555&espv=2&es_sm=93&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=X3NWU77cKYiY2AW67IGIAg&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAQ&biw=1366&bih=653) Is all imitation parody? Simple question. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-black-face-necessarily-racist/686660/130 "2014-04-22T14:03:10Z")
Also: is all resemblance imitation? ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-black-face-necessarily-racist/686660/131 "2014-04-22T14:07:28Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Is all imitation parody? > > Simple question. No, context is still important in life. Your example of Rowan Atkinson and Lenny Henry parodying Martin Bashir and Michael Jackson (respectively), is still imitation/parody/mockery, its also funny. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-black-face-necessarily-racist/686660/132 "2014-04-22T14:12:33Z")
> [@orcenio](#): > > No, context is still important in life. Your example of Rowan Atkinson and Lenny Henry parodying Martin Bashir and Michael Jackson (respectively), is still imitation/parody/mockery, its also funny. That was not the question. The question was: “Is all imitation Parody?” The question you seem to have chosen to answer is: “Is all Parody Imitation?” which is necessarily true. Now answer the important one. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-black-face-necessarily-racist/686660/133 "2014-04-22T14:14:11Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > Not imitating: caricaturizing with ill intent. It’s completely different. > [@Pjen](#): > > And parodying them to bring them into contempt- that is the difference. I’d argue it’s a difference of degree, no more - merely outlining difference on racial lines is evil intent enough. > [@](#): > > So far as the stage goes, I have no problem with people of different ethnic backgrounds portraying others by any means. So long as it is not overtly or covertly harmful to the group. Are you prepared to leave whether it’s harmful or not up to the group in question? > [@Pjen](#): > > Afro Caribbean is as much a race as African-American which is universally accepted as a racial designation. USA =/= universally. And no, it’s not “universally accepted” as a race. Personally, I’d say it’s an _ethnicity_. > [@](#): > > Diseases do discriminate by ‘real’ racial characteristics- genetic markers often only obtained through a particular genettic/racial heritage. That may be. Sickle-cell isn’t it. > [@](#): > > Do you disagree with more careful neo-nate testing for people of African origin than your average Northern European, or for your sub-continent Caucasian for diabetes rather than your average European. Fallacy of the excluded middle. > [@](#): > > Differentiaiion by race is not necessarily racism if racism is taken to be a bad thing. Differentiation by race may be clinically and socially valuable. It possibly may be (although not in your examples) but that’s overshadowed by the social and medical harm or waste that would happen e.g. an Italian not getting tested for Sickle Cell “because he’s White”, or a South African Black getting tested for it unnecessarily (since it has very low prevalence here) ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-black-face-necessarily-racist/686660/134 "2014-04-22T14:16:34Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > That was not the question. > > The question was: > > “Is all imitation Parody?” > > The question you seem to have chosen to answer is: > > “Is all Parody Imitation?” > > which is necessarily true. > > Now answer the important one. ??? No, context is still important in life. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-black-face-necessarily-racist/686660/135 "2014-04-22T14:18:26Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Diseases do discriminate by ‘real’ racial characteristics- genetic markers often only obtained through a particular genettic/racial heritage. Such as? Sickle-cell isn’t it - it’s very much tied to geography not racial characteristics… > [@Pjen](#): > > My racial characteristics are middle coloured skin (not African, not Nordic) What’s “African”-coloured skin, please? How is it different from Indian skin or Melanesian skin or Aborigine skin? > [@](#): > > , large nose with roundish eyes (not oriental), tall and very straight hair that once was brown, but now grey. > > Anyone would identify me as a dark skinned European. Or Indian or Persian or North African or Coloured or … > [@](#): > > Stop the bullshit and go away. Nope. Not when your idea of “racial characteristics” are skin colour and nose shape, I’m not. ---
**Author:** ![tapu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@tapu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tapu)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-black-face-necessarily-racist/686660/136 "2014-04-22T14:18:28Z")
OP: Yes. Always assume that and you can’t go wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-black-face-necessarily-racist/686660/137 "2014-04-22T14:18:47Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > …merely outlining difference on racial lines is evil intent enough. Care to defend that statement? ---
**Author:** ![Wallenstein](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b5a626/32.png) [@Wallenstein](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wallenstein)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-black-face-necessarily-racist/686660/138 "2014-04-22T14:19:20Z")
> [@orcenio](#): > > You can call it a silly/good-natured/historical/culturally-important (or whatever) parody; but that’s on you. It still is what it is. Blackface/blackmoor/darkie dancing. It feels like you’re saying “because I think it’s racist it therefore is racist”, with no possible argument against it. It’s been discussed before but \*\*Nava \*\*will provide experience elsewhere in Europe that dressing up in blackface is not viewed as racist in every case. The example often used is Spanish F1 fans [dressing up as Lewis Hamilton](http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2008/10/30/article-1081822-0026067400000578-521_468x286.jpg). ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-black-face-necessarily-racist/686660/139 "2014-04-22T14:19:34Z")
> [@orcenio](#): > > ??? > > No, context is still important in life. That seems at odds with what you were insisting at the top of this page (where it seemed to me that you were saying context was irrelevant). ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-black-face-necessarily-racist/686660/140 "2014-04-22T14:20:03Z")
> [@orcenio](#): > > ??? > > No, context is still important in life. Is all imitation Parody? You can’t or won’t answer and big text does not answer any question. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-black-face-necessarily-racist/686660.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-black-face-necessarily-racist/686660.md?page=8)