# Is Black Face necessarily racist? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 22, 2014, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-black-face-necessarily-racist/686660 "2014-04-22T05:39:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-black-face-necessarily-racist/686660/141 "2014-04-22T14:20:33Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > I’d argue it’s a difference of degree, no more - merely outlining difference on racial lines is evil intent enough. So in your world, all those parades of my childhood in which a white man and his pageant representing black people were honored were evil? We didn’t have any actual black people available to play the roles; as soon as we got them, we started doing our best to cast them, but they still have to accept. Is casting a black man as that character evil as well, when it turns out it’s someone who had never heard of the character before? The casting is completely based on his race. > [@Wallenstein](#): > > The example often used is Spanish F1 fans [dressing up as Lewis Hamilton](http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2008/10/30/article-1081822-0026067400000578-521_468x286.jpg). They are not “Spanish F1 fans”, they’re “Spanish Alonso fans”. Different animal: the first group actually likes F1, the second one likes Fernando Alonso. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-black-face-necessarily-racist/686660/142 "2014-04-22T14:22:20Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Such as? Sickle-cell isn’t it - it’s very much tied to geography not racial characteristics… > > What’s “African”-coloured skin, please? > > How is it different from Indian skin or Melanesian skin or Aborigine skin?Or Indian or Persian or North African or Coloured or …Nope. > > Not when your idea of “racial characteristics” are skin colour and nose shape, I’m not. Don’t be silly. There are many racial characteristics. Skin colour and Facial features certainly are; many other characteristics add to the ill defined idea of race. As you are not debating, but just listing silly points, I am done with your replies. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-black-face-necessarily-racist/686660/143 "2014-04-22T14:25:30Z")
Nobody want to comment on the racial insensitivity of Lenny Henry whiting up to play Michael Jackson. That is certainly a subject for debate on so many levels! ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-black-face-necessarily-racist/686660/144 "2014-04-22T14:32:02Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Care to defend that statement? Do I need to? Splitting the human race into smaller groups along completely arbitrary lines based on superficial physical characteristics is evil in-and-of itself > [@Nava](#): > > So in your world, all those parades of my childhood in which a white man and his pageant representing black people were honored were evil? Pretty much, yes. Small-e evil, but not _good_, no. Why the need to dress anyone up? all it does is emphasise physical difference. > [@Pjen](#): > > Don’t be silly. > There are many racial characteristics. Skin colour and Facial features certainly are And yet you can’t tell me what makes a particular skin colour “African”…:dubious: > [@](#): > > ; many other characteristics add to the ill defined idea of race. “Ill-defined” is the only thing you’ve gotten right, so far. > [@](#): > > As you are not debating, but just listing silly points, I am done with your replies. Just because you _can’t_ actually answer my questions, is no reason to give up. I know, cognitive dissonance hurts… ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-black-face-necessarily-racist/686660/145 "2014-04-22T14:32:44Z")
> [@orcenio](#): > > ??? > > No, context is still important in life. > [@Pjen](#): > > Is all imitation Parody? > > You can’t or won’t answer and big text does not answer any question. The response “no, context is important” could be a valid (and IMO, quite reasonable) answer to the question “Is all imitation Parody?”. It just doesn’t appear to agree with the posts near the top of this page. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-black-face-necessarily-racist/686660/146 "2014-04-22T14:33:56Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Nobody want to comment on the racial insensitivity of Lenny Henry whiting up to play Michael Jackson. I already delineated the satire exception earlier… ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-black-face-necessarily-racist/686660/147 "2014-04-22T14:40:22Z")
For those that now seem to want to get into an argument as to what actually is a “race”, may I point you towards this: > **[Definition of RACE](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/race)** > > any one of the groups that humans are often divided into based on physical traits regarded as common among people of shared ancestry; also : the fact of dividing people, or of people being divided, into such groups : categorization by race… See the... Specifically section 3:2:b and the end of the “Concise Encyclopedia” note. I honestly believe this should be stickied somewhere as it seems like every time the word “racism” is used someone starts making weird claims about what is or is not a race. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-black-face-necessarily-racist/686660/148 "2014-04-22T14:48:19Z")
> [@amanset](#): > > For those that now seem to want to get into an argument as to what actually is a “race”, may I point you towards this: > > [Race Definition & Meaning - Merriam-Webster](http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/race) > > Specifically section 3:2:b and the end of the “Concise Encyclopedia” note. I honestly believe this should be stickied somewhere as it seems like every time the word “racism” is used someone starts making weird claims about what is or is not a race. How do you get from [QUOTE=Concise Encyclopedia] "Race” is today primarily a sociological designation, identifying a class sharing some outward physical characteristics and some commonalities of culture and history. [/QUOTE] to [QUOTE=Pjen] Diseases do discriminate by ‘real’ racial characteristics- genetic markers often only obtained through a particular genettic/racial heritage [/QUOTE] ??? I’m using the definition of race that my opponent seems to be i.e. that it’s genetic. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-black-face-necessarily-racist/686660/149 "2014-04-22T14:50:05Z")
I think you might as well include 3:2:a and 3:3:c in the functional definition as relates to racism (unless you think they are implied by the catch-all ‘or characteristics’ bit of 3:2:b ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-black-face-necessarily-racist/686660/150 "2014-04-22T15:10:49Z")
There is only one Race- Human. But within that are broad groups with similarities physical attributes ranging from facial features, to skin colour to their DNA that allow classification into non-discrete, ill defined classes. There are further cultural differences that are non-genetic but may be physical or mental. Humans are necessarily discriminating animals and they divide humanity up into categories- friend and foe, like and unlike and so on. Some of these categorisations have validity and utility for different reasons, others do not. Each claimed class needs to be justified in it own terms. Pretending such racialisation does not exist is stupid- it obviously does. How we deal with this is a human problem. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-black-face-necessarily-racist/686660/151 "2014-04-22T15:14:33Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Pretty much, yes. Small-e evil, but not _good_, no. Why the need to dress anyone up? all it does is emphasise physical difference. So you would rather we had had someone completely pale and undistinctive representing black folks? And how were we supposed to explain to children that this white guy represented black people? Or is it directly that having someone represent black people (while two other guys represent brown people and glow-in-the-dark people) is wrong? ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-black-face-necessarily-racist/686660/152 "2014-04-22T15:54:14Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > How do you get from > > to > > ??? > > I’m using the definition of race that my opponent seems to be i.e. that it’s genetic. Well, there’s this for a start: > [@MrDibble](#): > > Afro-Carribbean is a race, now? Sub-Continental Asian is a race now? Please tell me how I have horribly misinterpreted that. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-black-face-necessarily-racist/686660/153 "2014-04-22T20:39:07Z")
Let’s look at an example of Border Morris: [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/7yjkzmW-Waw/hqdefault.jpg "Beltane Border Morris at teignmouth folk 2") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7yjkzmW-Waw) Aside from the painted faces (which are the contended issue), is anything that’s happening here recognisable as stereotypically or caricature/mockery of something commonly associated with… well, any racial/ethnic group you can think of? Are these dancers obviously mocking black people? Is this a\* racist dance\*? This is the problem I have. I can’t see any mockery happening at all. In fact, if there was some behavioural mockery, then it would be present in some of the other Morris traditions where their faces aren’t painted - because the dances and costumes are similar. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-black-face-necessarily-racist/686660/154 "2014-04-22T20:47:19Z")
Subcontinentals (Indians, Pakistanis, Bangladeshis, etc.) are a mix of two distinct racial groups (Ancient North Indians and Ancient South Indians), one of which is pretty distinct from most other populations (besides the Andamanese). So subcontinentals are definitely a racially distinct population from most other groups, even though they are (like all of us) a mix of ancestries. I’m not sure quite what your point is here. And no, the Morris dancers dressed up as Moors aren’t racist. It’s a pity that even needs to be stated- this whole controversy is really too silly for words. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-black-face-necessarily-racist/686660/155 "2014-04-22T21:56:53Z")
> [@orcenio](#): > > ??? > > No, context is still important in life. So we can, based on your words, ignore your silly and context free claim: > [@orcenio](#): > > Blacking your face is a parody of people with black skin. Full stop. Parodying people with black skin is mocking them. Full stop. You made a declaration that a phenomenon was parody regardless of any context. Then you claimed that context was important. You are wrong. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-black-face-necessarily-racist/686660/156 "2014-04-22T21:58:41Z")
THE “DISCUSSION” OF WHAT “RACE” MAY BE HAS NOW ENDED IN THIS THREAD. IT IS NOT NECESSARY TO THE POINT RAISED IN THE OP AND IT IS A HIJACK OF THE DISCUSSION, (such as it is), REGARDING THE OP. **[/Moderating]** ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-black-face-necessarily-racist/686660/157 "2014-04-22T22:12:09Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > So we can, based on your words, ignore your silly and context free claim: > > You made a declaration that a phenomenon was parody regardless of any context. > Then you claimed that context was important. > > You are wrong. Yeah, well; it wouldn’t be the first time. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2014, 7:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-black-face-necessarily-racist/686660/158 "2014-04-23T07:00:44Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > So you would rather we had had someone completely pale and undistinctive representing black folks? I’d rather black people ‘represent’ black people. Failing that, I’d prefer the people doing it didn’t focus on one minor physical attribute, that _isn’t_ unique to that group, as a shorthand for an entire ethnicity. > [@](#): > > And how were we supposed to explain to children that this white guy represented black people? Distinctive costumes? A placard?_Tell_ them? > [@](#): > > Or is it directly that having someone represent black people (while two other guys represent brown people and glow-in-the-dark people) is wrong? The white guy representing brown people would be wrong too. Since glow-in-the-dark people are fictional, there’s nothing wrong with that one. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2014, 7:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-black-face-necessarily-racist/686660/159 "2014-04-23T07:04:40Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > Are these dancers obviously mocking black people? Is this a\* racist dance\*? This is the problem I have. \*If \*they’re painted to represent Black people (and I think they are, given the origins of the name “Morris”, but you may not) then there doesn’t need to be any further element of mockery. Because real-life Black people are _not_ coal-black. _Especially_ Moors. So it’s already an exaggerated caricature of Black people’s physical features. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2014, 7:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-black-face-necessarily-racist/686660/160 "2014-04-23T07:18:49Z")
I have another question. Please don’t misunderstand this, it is asked in complete earnest. If the producers of the Black And White Minstrels Show had decided (say, in 1976) to switch to navy blue face paint, or green or lilac (but with no other changes to the format, style, etc), would the show still be mocking/parodying black people? What I’m asking is: is it the blacking up, or the musical style, mannerisms and choreography? I suspect it’s a combination of them all, but what I want to know is: what would have to be changed to make it not-racist? This does also go back to Border Morris - because: [ul] [li]It was suggested upthread that they just use a different colour.[/li][li]Some Border Morris groups have already done that, to avoid being involved in this sort of debate.[/li][/ul] If all the Border Morris groups suddenly agreed to start using blue paint instead of black, is that the end of all controversy? If not, what _is_ the root of it? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-black-face-necessarily-racist/686660.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-black-face-necessarily-racist/686660.md?page=9)