Is Black Face necessarily racist?

[Novelty_Bobble]

@BrightNShiny

I’m in this thread to make clear that I think it’s racist. And even though I’m a minority, my opinion counts. And I’m more then fed up with having to explain why things that are obviously racist are, in fact racist. And I’m tired of having to be the one to always provide cites and provide evidence. Let the people who are claiming it isn’t racist provide evidence for a change. Let the ones defending racism have to provide the cites. Because if someone can look at this situation and not think something’s wrong, there’s no amount of cites I can provide that can convince them.

From reading this thread it is pretty clear why you are fed up with explaining yourself. It is because your explanations are weak, they not in any way convincing, in fact they are assertions rather than explanations. Plus, when you do keep making repeated claims for others to prove a negative and ignoring your own requirement to back up your own assertions then…well, prepare yourself for further frustration.

In your mind is it ever OK for a white person to darken their face? Because if not there really isn’t any point taking your opinion seriously.

[orcenio]

@Mangetout

Is it though? Can you show your workings for this conclusion?

My workings? Blacking your face to look black is a parody. This is pretty self explanatory.

[Pjen]

@MrDibble

You realise that Japanese are as pale as most “Caucasians”, right?

Not in my experience, having had a Japanese girlfriend many years ago. They may approximate to the same colour under the sunny climes, but no Japanese could match the porcelain white of un sun-tanned Northern Europeans.

Why do you think that they were characterised as the yellow peril!!! There’s racism for you. Think Gila Concentration camp 1941!

[MrDibble]

@Pjen

What a mish-mash of ideas.

There is a distinct difference between racism (use of language or action that is based on the exercise of power or control of one group over another and may or may not have the intent of harming the other group) and racialism (treatment of different cultural groups differently according to their real needs.)

That’s not the definition of racialism I’m familiar with…

Just so you know, I come from the school that says dividing human beings into races is itself a racist act.

[Pjen]

@Nava

And Denzel Washington playing Don Pedro (it has been that long? Agh I’m ancient!). I’m reasonably sure most of the ladies who have played Madame Butterfly or the young ladies in the Mikado weren’t Japanese either.

I would rather use the first to discuss how much is or is not his color an important element in the character of Don Pedro than rend my clothes over Brannagh not choosing a Spaniard (or an Italian, or… you know, someone who has the looks I’d expect of a Middle Ages Don Pedro of Aragon), but the reply from Americans who think anything related to race is racist is “that’s because your people have never been oppressed”. AFAICT, it’s one of those cases where the majority of the noise comes from those who have no interest in listening.

I have no problem with people of one race playing people of another whether they imitate the other race or not.

It would seem to be that people who do have such a problem are not interested in treating people equally, but in making a political point.

[MrDibble]

@Pjen

Not in my experience, having had a Japanese girlfriend many years ago. They may approximate to the same colour under the sunny climes, but no Japanese could match the porcelain white of un sun-tanned Northern Europeans.

IME, Europeans aren’t just Northern Europeans, and Japanese are pretty pale. Certainly paler than most Spanish, French, Greeks and Italians I’ve met.

Why do you think that they were characterised as the yellow peril

Ooh, I know! Racism?

[Pjen]

@MrDibble

That’s not the definition of racialism I’m familiar with…

Just so you know, I come from the school that says dividing human beings into races is itself a racist act.

So it is racist to have special diagnostic programs for

Afro-Carribbeans at risk of Sickle Cell

Or Sub Continent Asians for Diabetes.

All those damned racists!

And one assumes you decry the special advantages offered to Native Americans, African Americans and Women regarding access to education.

[MrDibble]

@Pjen

I have no problem with people of one race playing people of another whether they imitate the other race or not.

So you’re cool with Minstrelsy then? Ooohkaaay…

[Pjen]

@MrDibble

IME, Europeans aren’t just Northern Europeans, and Japanese are pretty pale. Certainly paler than most Spanish, French, Greeks and Italians I’ve met.
Ooh, I know! Racism?

But dark enough to use white face!

[Nava]

@Pjen

I have no problem with people of one race playing people of another whether they imitate the other race or not.

It would seem to be that people who do have such a problem are not interested in treating people equally, but in making a political point.

Yes, their point is that race doesn’t exist but as a political construct. The main point of their reasoning is that, since you cannot determine someone’s ancestral makeup fully by sight (note that this doesn’t even apply in the case of culturally-determined races), race doesn’t exist and anybody who thinks it does is a racist.

[MrDibble]

@Pjen

So it is racist to have special diagnostic programs for

Afro-Carribbeans at risk of Sickle Cell

Or Sub Continent Asians for Diabetes.

All those damned racists!

Afro-Carribbean is a race, now? Sub-Continental Asian is a race now?

And are Turks, Arabs and Indians tested at the same time as those Afro-Caribbeans? If not, yes, racist.

[MrDibble]

@Pjen

But dark enough to use white face!

So was this guy.

[Mangetout]

@orcenio

My workings? Blacking your face to look black is a parody. This is pretty self explanatory.

Nobody is questioning whether painting your face results in a differently-coloured face. That is obvious.

I was asking you to demonstrate that this is done to mock black people - your assertion was:

@orcenio

Well, not all Morris dancing is parodying/lampooning/mocking black people, but the blackface Morris dancing is clearly parodying/lampooning/mocking black people.

Just because this type of blackface (might) pre-dates minstrel shows doesn’t mean its not also parodying/lampooning/mocking black people; it is.

[Pjen]

@orcenio

My workings? Blacking your face to look black is a parody. This is pretty self explanatory.

So women playing men and men playing women in theatre and film is parody, not appropriate use of gender in making an artistic point?

All imitation is parody?

I think not, except in the mind of an “inverted racist”- one who cannot cope with outward display of racial characteristics for purposes other than causing offence.

[MrDibble]

What, pray tell, are “racial characteristics”? It’s the thick lips and curly hair, isn’t it?

[Pjen]

@MrDibble

So you’re cool with Minstrelsy then? Ooohkaaay…

Straw Man

“I have no problem with people of one race playing people of another whether they imitate the other race or not.”

I do however have a problem when it is done with intent (overt or covert) to damage the social value of the other group.

[MrDibble]

@Pjen

Straw Man

“I have no problem with people of one race playing people of another whether they imitate the other race or not.”

I do however have a problem when it is done with intent (overt or covert) to damage the social value of the other group.

A qualification you didn’t make in your original statement. What is Minstrelsy but people of one race playing another, imitating them while they do so?

[Nava]

Not imitating: caricaturizing with ill intent. It’s completely different.

[Pjen]

@MrDibble

Afro-Carribbean is a race, now? Sub-Continental Asian is a race now?

And are Turks, Arabs and Indians tested at the same time as those Afro-Caribbeans? If not, yes, racist.

Afro Caribbean is as much a race as African-American which is universally accepted as a racial designation.

Diseases do discriminate by ‘real’ racial characteristics- genetic markers often only obtained through a particular genettic/racial heritage.

Do you disagree with more careful neo-nate testing for people of African origin than your average Northern European, or for your sub-continent Caucasian for diabetes rather than your average European.

Differentiaiion by race is not necessarily racism if racism is taken to be a bad thing. Differentiation by race may be clinically and socially valuable.

[Pjen]

@MrDibble

A qualification you didn’t make in your original statement. What is Minstrelsy but people of one race playing another, imitating them while they do so?

And parodying them to bring them into contempt- that is the difference.

So far as the stage goes, I have no problem with people of different ethnic backgrounds portraying others by any means. So long as it is not overtly or covertly harmful to the group.