# is black seperatism still a viable option?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-black-seperatism-still-a-viable-option/219429
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [December 17, 2003, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-black-seperatism-still-a-viable-option/219429 "2003-12-17T00:34:53Z")
**Posts on this page:** 18
**Page:** 2
### Author:  [@John\_Carter\_of\_Mars](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Carter_of_Mars)
#### Post date: [December 18, 2003, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-black-seperatism-still-a-viable-option/219429/21 "2003-12-18T04:32:24Z")
By **Belowjob2.0** : “If this new nation state were armed with conventional weapons, the US could still invade and reestablish control, but only at tremendous expense and loss of life. If this new nation were armed with chemical and/or nuclear weapons (not so hard to get for an advanced industrial nation), _reestablishing US control would be impossible._” (Emphasis mine)
The US has already demonstrated the political will to go to war with a nearly equivilant enemy (Confederate States of America) to preserve the Union. They reestablished control then, they could and would do so again. Do you think there would be less resolve today? That war’s purpose was to defeat a racist society and preserve the Union. The same could be said of the hypothetical war you suggest. The result would be the same.
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### Author:  [@pizzabrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pizzabrat)
#### Post date: [January 22, 2004, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-black-seperatism-still-a-viable-option/219429/22 "2004-01-22T04:59:26Z")
> [@](#):
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> _John Carter of Mars_
> That war’s purpose was to defeat a racist society and preserve the Union. The same could be said of the hypothetical war you suggest. The result would be the same.
“To defeat a racist society” was not the purpose of the Civil War, nor would it be the purpose of this hypothetical war. I’m not pro-black seperatism because I hate all other races, I’m pro-black seperatism because I hate being a minority in my own country. Now that the Jews have Israel, American blacks are the only people in the world (as far as I know) without a home. It’s depressing and unfair. Why would the U.S. be so interested in retaining a state that’s saturated with blacks anyway?
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### Author:  [@Sunspace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunspace)
#### Post date: [January 22, 2004, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-black-seperatism-still-a-viable-option/219429/23 "2004-01-22T05:31:28Z")
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> _ **John Mace** said:_
> That province hasn’t seceded yet, nor is it likely to do so. There is no way the federal government would allow a state to secede.
[The Clarity Act](http://lois.justice.gc.ca/en/C-31.8/33915.html): no secession negotiations if the will of the would-be seceders is not clear. Royal Assent 29 June 2000.
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### Author:  [@Garfield226](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Garfield226)
#### Post date: [January 22, 2004, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-black-seperatism-still-a-viable-option/219429/24 "2004-01-22T05:36:12Z")
> [@pizzabrat](#):
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> I’m pro-black seperatism because I hate being a minority in my own country. Now that the Jews have Israel, American blacks are the only people in the world (as far as I know) without a home. It’s depressing and unfair. Why would the U.S. be so interested in retaining a state that’s saturated with blacks anyway?
Perhaps because the United States of America is not a country for white people. Perhaps because the United States of America has been one of the greatest and most successful experiments in bringing together people of hundreds or thousands of nationalities, and integrating them into ONE country representative of everyone. Perhaps because for most people in the United States of America, diversity is an asset, not a detriment. Perhaps because the United States of America, while certainly having a lot more to accomplish, is a lot more tolerant, diverse, and ethnically-minded than most other countries on the planet, and certainly would be moreso than your hypothetical “home.”
Separtism didn’t work last time because whites wanted it but blacks didn’t. You think it’ll work now if (some) blacks want it and the rest of the country doesn’t?
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### Author:  [@pizzabrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pizzabrat)
#### Post date: [January 22, 2004, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-black-seperatism-still-a-viable-option/219429/25 "2004-01-22T13:38:44Z")
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> _Garfield226_
> Perhaps because the United States of America has been one of the greatest and most successful experiments in bringing together people of hundreds or thousands of nationalities, and integrating them into ONE country representative of everyone.
Are there even “thousands of nationalities” in existence? Anyway, integration has worked for everyone but blacks. Everyone else came over here with the intention of becoming American; blacks are just unsightly leftovers from one of America’s regrettable periods.
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> Perhaps because the United States of America, while certainly having a lot more to accomplish…
I hear that alot. “We’re not perfect but you should be happy that things aren’t worse for your people”. Look, I only have one life, and I take it seriously, so I don’t have time to wait around for America to accomplish the rest. I want there to be at least one place on Earth where I can be considered an index person.
> [@](#):
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> Separtism didn’t work last time because whites wanted it but blacks didn’t. You think it’ll work now if (some) blacks want it and the rest of the country doesn’t?
When did whites want seperation and blacks not? Are you referring to when blacks rallied against _segregation_, i.e., seperation as dictated soley by whites? Do you also think that the “rest of the country” (i.e., the citizens, not the government) would have a problem with blacks wanting to leave?
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### Author:  [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)
#### Post date: [January 22, 2004, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-black-seperatism-still-a-viable-option/219429/26 "2004-01-22T15:21:10Z")
> [@pizzabrat](#):
>
> When did whites want seperation and blacks not? Are you referring to when blacks rallied against _segregation_, i.e., seperation as dictated soley by whites? Do you also think that the “rest of the country” (i.e., the citizens, not the government) would have a problem with blacks wanting to leave?
I think you’re giving unreasonably short shrift to the white population. I wouldn’t want a major part of our country’s heritage and diversity to withdraw to their own country.
Besides which, I think you’d find it slow going to convince all the African-Americans in the US to a) pull up stakes and move to a completely unknown state and b) withdraw from a nation with a long-standing economic/social/political infrastructure to a new nation with none of the above established.
That’s actually the one obstacle I haven’t seen addressed yet in this thread… convincing all the African-Americans in the country to go in on this with you. I think you’d have a lower turnout than you imagine you would…
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### Author:  [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)
#### Post date: [January 22, 2004, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-black-seperatism-still-a-viable-option/219429/27 "2004-01-22T16:56:39Z")
There is one jurisdiction in the US that is already overwhelmingly black, namely the District of Columbia. I’d be interested to know from DC area blacks whether the “getting pulled over for driving while black” phenomenon happens here as it does elsewhere. In my opinion a very valid complaint that blacks have about American society is that driving an expensive car while black can get you pulled over, shopping in an expensive shop while black will get you followed, etc. If this phenomenon occurs in DC where the power structure is largely in the hands of blacks, that would be interesting. If it doesn’t, then that would be a pretty compelling argument that we still have a ways to go.
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### Author:  [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)
#### Post date: [January 22, 2004, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-black-seperatism-still-a-viable-option/219429/28 "2004-01-22T17:04:13Z")
> [@Sunspace](#):
>
> [The Clarity Act](http://lois.justice.gc.ca/en/C-31.8/33915.html): no secession negotiations if the will of the would-be seceders is not clear. Royal Assent 29 June 2000.
My post was a bit unclear. The 2nd to last sentence applied to Canada, but my last sentence referred to the US (hence the use of state instead of province). But thanks for the cite anyway. Interesting!
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### Author:  [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)
#### Post date: [January 22, 2004, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-black-seperatism-still-a-viable-option/219429/29 "2004-01-22T17:11:30Z")
> [@](#):
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> PB wrote:
> Do you also think that the “rest of the country” (i.e., the citizens, not the government) would have a problem with blacks wanting to leave?
I wouldn’t give a rat’s ass if **anyone** wanted to leave. You’re not talking about leaving, you’re talking about seceding. Two completely different animals.
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### Author:  [@Dob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dob)
#### Post date: [January 22, 2004, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-black-seperatism-still-a-viable-option/219429/30 "2004-01-22T19:44:11Z")
> [@](#):
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> American blacks are the only people in the world (as far as I know) without a home. It’s depressing and unfair
Say what again? Are you saying America isnt your home? You would consider some place you have never seen nor lived to be your home over somplace where you were born and rasied…as were your parents? My ancestors were born in Italy, Italy is not my home its where my ancestors came from. Amercia is my home.
Grant it my ancestors were not brought here as slaves, yours may have been, I dont know your history. For arguments sake lets say they were, 200 years ago your ancestors were brought here as slaves. You would still consider Africa a home over America?
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### Author:  [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)
#### Post date: [January 22, 2004, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-black-seperatism-still-a-viable-option/219429/31 "2004-01-22T20:30:58Z")
**pizzabrat** , you know I love you.
> [@](#):
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> Anyway, integration has worked for everyone but blacks. Everyone else came over here with the intention of becoming American; blacks are just unsightly leftovers from one of America’s regrettable periods.
We’ve been left behind,yes, but we aren’t going to stay there. We’ve come so far that it would be sinful for us to leave now. I could see secession as a good alternative one hundred or maybe even fifty years ago. But not now. We have too much of a solid, comfortable middle class. The bourgeious are too happy with their lot in life. And we have a future here.
Running away isn’t going to help anyone.
There are other alternatives–albeit equally dramatic. Black Americans could migrate en route to a place like Haiti or Jamaica and transform it into a totally different place. It wouldn’t be easy, but I think they’d have a better shot doing something like this than taking land from the most powerful country in the world.
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### Author:  [@pizzabrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pizzabrat)
#### Post date: [January 22, 2004, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-black-seperatism-still-a-viable-option/219429/32 "2004-01-22T20:36:15Z")
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> _Dob_
> Say what again? Are you saying America isnt your home? You would consider some place you have never seen nor lived to be your home over somplace where you were born and rasied…as were your parents?
What? No! That’s my entire point! I don’t consider anyplace to be my home. What’s excrutiating to me is that I probably have deeper roots in this country than you do, yet you get to be considered “normal person” while I’m the minority.
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### Author:  [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)
#### Post date: [January 22, 2004, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-black-seperatism-still-a-viable-option/219429/33 "2004-01-22T21:52:49Z")
> [@pizzabrat](#):
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> Now that the Jews have Israel, American blacks are the only people in the world (as far as I know) without a home.
Acehnese, Assamese, Australian Aborigines, Basques, Bougainville Islanders, Chechens, Gypsies, Iroquois, Karen, Kashmiris, Kurds, Lapps, Moros, Nagas, Palestinians, Sahrawis, Shan, Sikhs, Somalilanders, South Sudanese, Tamils, Tibetans, Uighurs, Zulus…
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### Author:  [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)
#### Post date: [January 23, 2004, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-black-seperatism-still-a-viable-option/219429/34 "2004-01-23T01:27:25Z")
> [@msmith537](#):
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> Going back to this ridiculous scenario, what happens when Blacksylvania seccedes from the Union and finds itself economically disadvantaged compared to the 49 United States of Whitey?
I rather prefer “New Blaxico”.
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### Author:  [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)
#### Post date: [January 24, 2004, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-black-seperatism-still-a-viable-option/219429/35 "2004-01-24T01:24:06Z")
> [@pravnik](#):
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> I rather prefer “New Blaxico”.
What’s wrong with Blackistan?
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### Author:  [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)
#### Post date: [January 25, 2004, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-black-seperatism-still-a-viable-option/219429/36 "2004-01-25T00:27:25Z")
Just to pile on this bit:
> [@](#):
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> Now that the Jews have Israel, American blacks are the only people in the world (as far as I know) without a home.
To the extent that _European_ Jews (or American Jews) “have” Israel, American blacks “have” Liberia (and probably can get the money to establish themselves in any number of other nations on the African continent).
I think you need to rethink your approach to this.
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### Author:  [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)
#### Post date: [January 26, 2004, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-black-seperatism-still-a-viable-option/219429/37 "2004-01-26T13:25:44Z")
Nothing can relieve you of feelings of frustration if you allow the opinions of others to determine your self-worth.
When I first started teaching, I was a coach and judge for forensic meets. There was one fiesty Black girl from a run-down neighborhood who had little going for her except a good mind and fierce pride in herself. She was for a while the richest woman in America. She has made it a point to make things better for everybody else.
Regardless of where you go, don’t rent space in your head to people who look down on you.
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### Author:  [@RexDart](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RexDart)
#### Post date: [January 27, 2004, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-black-seperatism-still-a-viable-option/219429/38 "2004-01-27T00:11:54Z")
> [@John Mace](#):
>
> Slight nit-pick, but Brown v Board of Ed was in the 50s, not the 60s. 1954, IIRC.
Secondary nit-pick:
The actual order for desegregation came a few years later, in _Brown II_. There followed then a long string of cases over the 60’s in which people dicked around trying to circumvent orders, and in which courts dicked around experimenting with desegregation methods. So the real meat of school desegregation could be said to have occured not until the 60’s, even if the “separate but equal” suffered its death as a legal principle in '54.
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