# Is Borders about to go under? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [January 4, 2011, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-borders-about-to-go-under/566387 "2011-01-04T16:46:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2011, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-borders-about-to-go-under/566387/181 "2011-02-17T17:02:13Z")
> [@elmwood](#): > > The problem with the smaller indie bookstores I’ve seen is that they’re typically very limited in scope. The inventory tends to reflect the owner’s tastes in literature, as opposed of the buying public. I can understand this, with people being very passionate about what they read. If they want to sell books, though, especially in a smaller city or town, they should understand that they may have a limited customer base if they decide to go deep with the gender studies and Chomsky screeds, and skimp with the bestsellers and new releases. To be successful, their passion needs to be for the written word, period, and they need to understand that they have to carry some books with wider appeal to subsidize the space for specialized, slower-moving volumes. I think you’ve got it backwards. They became specialty stores in the first place because they couldn’t compete in the bestseller retail market. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2011, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-borders-about-to-go-under/566387/182 "2011-02-17T18:04:30Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > I think you’ve got it backwards. They became specialty stores in the first place because they couldn’t compete in the bestseller retail market. This is true. The standard discount for books is 40%. Large chains can negotiate 50% discounts on bestsellers. Walmart or Amazon can negotiate 55%. Independent bookstores have a choice. They can stock at standard price and be uncompetitive or they can lose money on every bestseller they sell by matching Walmart prices. Either way is unlikely to get them enough extra business to overcome this loss the way a Walmart can use a bestseller as a loss leader. Their audience is not a bestseller audience. People who go to small independent booksellers that pride themselves on selection hate bestsellers. (Even if they occasionally buy them.) It doesn’t work any more than would a gourmet restaurant putting in some McDonald’s burgers because they have wider appeal. ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2011, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-borders-about-to-go-under/566387/183 "2011-02-17T20:48:17Z")
Of course the speicality bookstores exist primarily beacuse the fill a niche, providing wider selection than a Borders or B&N can. However, with the advent of Amazon and now eBooks with instant delivery, it isn’t a problem finding any book you want. BTW, I would say I have probaby bought just as many clunkers by browsing as I have gems. ---
**Author:** ![Lightray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightray/32/391_2.png) [@Lightray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightray)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2011, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-borders-about-to-go-under/566387/184 "2011-02-17T21:58:01Z")
I think, though, that the small specialty bookstores _are_ the booksellers that Amazon is relying on to supply the niche books. For those niche bookstores, participating with Amazon may have been a boon to their buiness – it opened up a new customer market for them. Borders going under could help ease some of the pressure on their brick-and-mortar sales, too. Probably no consolation for the niche booksellers who haven’t hooked up with Amazon, though… ---
**Author:** ![asterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2011, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-borders-about-to-go-under/566387/185 "2011-02-18T01:11:21Z")
Traditionally I’ve been so cheap that I’d rather buy 10 or 20 used paperbacks (often from the 1970s) than one new hardback novel. I almost never buy a hardback even at the discount price and instead wait for the paperback if I do buy new. So I’m exactly the kind of person driving bookstores (except for used ones) into the ground. And I haven’t bought any used books since I moved, partially because I haven’t actually found any used book stores (though I know they’re around) and partially because the library system here is quite good and I have too many books to begin with. ---
**Author:** ![elmwood](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmwood/32/3060_2.png) [@elmwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elmwood)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2011, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-borders-about-to-go-under/566387/186 "2011-02-18T04:56:44Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > I think you’ve got it backwards. They became specialty stores in the first place because they couldn’t compete in the bestseller retail market. I’m not thinking of specialty bookstores, like feminist or mystery bookstores. I’m thinking of independently owned general bookstores that go deep in odd areas. Remember, for a store to be successful, they actually have to sell the products on the shelves. ---
**Author:** ![Lynn\_Bodoni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e47c2d/32.png) [@Lynn\_Bodoni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lynn_Bodoni)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2011, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-borders-about-to-go-under/566387/187 "2011-02-18T05:51:09Z")
> [@](#): > > Remember, for a store to be successful, they actually have to sell the products on the shelves. And they have to have products on the shelves in the first place. If I go into a bookstore and wander around for an hour, and I walk out without buying anything, that means that either everything is way, way overpriced, or else there’s nothing that interests me. I don’t want the latest Twilight saga, or whatever Anne Rice has last vomited forth. I can usually find SOMETHING that I want. But I’m not going to buy hardbacks or trade paperbacks unless I really, really like the author. I simply don’t have the room, and I don’t want to spend the extra bucks on a larger edition, and I find books larger than standard paperbacks to be unwieldy. It seems that the chain B&M bookstores have forgotten that their ideal customers are avid readers. Sure, the games and puzzles are fun, and there’s probably a lot of readers who really enjoy them. I know I do. But the past few times I’ve gone into a chain B&M bookstore, all I see are racks of bestsellers, which I can buy at Target at a discount without needing a loyalty card. What I rarely see are books that Target isn’t likely to carry. I went into the bookstores because I wanted a book, that day. I didn’t want to order a book, I can do that at home. ---
**Author:** ![Onomatopoeia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/onomatopoeia/32/4145_2.png) [@Onomatopoeia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Onomatopoeia)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2011, 6:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-borders-about-to-go-under/566387/188 "2011-02-18T06:14:30Z")
> [@Lynn\_Bodoni](#): > > I went into the bookstores because I wanted a book, that day. I didn’t want to order a book, I can do that at home. Lady, you’re singin’ my tune. I became so tired of hearing “we can order it for you” that I stopped going to bookstores altogether. Now I just cut to the chase and order from Amazon, which has lower prices anyway. And if they have the book in Kindle format I still get to satisfy my craving for immediate gratification without leaving the house. ---
**Author:** ![jackdavinci](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackdavinci/32/3259_2.png) [@jackdavinci](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jackdavinci)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2011, 8:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-borders-about-to-go-under/566387/189 "2011-02-18T08:56:46Z")
The one thing I don’t understand is the “overpriced” complaint. Except for new bestsellers and remainder items, books, unlike other consumer items have a specific price. It’s even _gasp_ printed on the back cover. And while you might find used copies cheaper online, you won’t generally find cheaper at another real live bookstore. And even online, new copies are comparative in price when you factor in shipping. My personal gripe is the fondness for trade paperbacks to hike up costs. If I want to read a book for low cost, I’m gonna seek out the regular paperback. There’s really just no point in transitioning from a hardback to a trade paperback. The people who really want to read it despite cost are gonna buy the hardback. The people who are waiting for a cost effective measure are gonna wait for the regular paperback. Who is going to bother with trade paperbacks other than people with vision issues? This is especially annoying with classic works from decades ago. I guess there must be a market, or else it wouldn’t happen, but I can’t fathom it. ---
**Author:** ![jabiru](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/bbce88/32.png) [@jabiru](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jabiru)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2011, 9:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-borders-about-to-go-under/566387/190 "2011-02-18T09:08:11Z")
When Borders first opened near me several years ago, I couldn’t go into the place without staggering out, arms laden and wallet lighter by at least $150. I can’t remember the last time I bought a book there. If I know exactly what I want, I find the best price on booko. If I want to browse, I go to Dymocks in Town or Abbeys. I don’t know what Borders has done but they haven’t been a browseable store for ages. The stock is just woeful. ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2011, 9:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-borders-about-to-go-under/566387/191 "2011-02-18T09:26:25Z")
> [@jackdavinci](#): > > The one thing I don’t understand is the “overpriced” complaint. Except for new bestsellers and remainder items, books, unlike other consumer items have a specific price. It’s even _gasp_ printed on the back cover. And while you might find used copies cheaper online, you won’t generally find cheaper at another real live bookstore. And even online, new copies are comparative in price when you factor in shipping. It’s been explained a couple of times already, but (at least in this part of the world), the RRP is 25-35% higher than what places like Big W and K-mart are actually charging for the book. It’s like the literary equivalent of the advertised price of a car- theoretically it’s The Price, but really, it’s always cheaper if you do even a modicum of legwork. Incidentally, Borders (and Angus & Robertson) in Australia [have announced that if you want to use one of their gift cards, you have to spend twice the value of the card to redeem it](http://www.news.com.au/business/breaking-news/borders-ar-book-voucher-holders-to-pay-double/story-e6frfkur-1226008225970)- thus, (as per the example in the linked article) if you have a $25 Gift Card, you’ve got to buy $50 worth of stuff to redeem the card. I’m not sure how that works from a legal perspective (ie if they’re actually allowed to do that) but effectively devaluing your gift cards by 50% is… not an encouraging thing to be be doing. ---
**Author:** ![GuanoLad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guanolad/32/42_2.png) [@GuanoLad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GuanoLad)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2011, 9:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-borders-about-to-go-under/566387/192 "2011-02-18T09:36:11Z")
I knew I should’ve used my $50 gift card in January. Doggone thing. ---
**Author:** ![Cazzle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cazzle/32/75_2.png) [@Cazzle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cazzle)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2011, 9:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-borders-about-to-go-under/566387/193 "2011-02-18T09:54:13Z")
> [@Lynn\_Bodoni](#): > > I went into the bookstores because I wanted a book, that day. I didn’t want to order a book, I can do that at home. I wasn’t shocked our local (non-Borders) bookstore disappeared. I was told almost every time I asked for something that they “didn’t have any demand for that”. After they told me that about the new Pratchett, I stopped going there at all. No demand? Umm, hell_oooo_ What am I? Chopped liver? ---
**Author:** ![Khadaji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Khadaji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Khadaji)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2011, 11:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-borders-about-to-go-under/566387/194 "2011-02-18T11:32:04Z")
> [@Lynn\_Bodoni](#): > > \ I went into the bookstores because I wanted a book, that day. I didn’t want to order a book, I can do that at home. Yes and even worse, as I posted upthread, I couldn’t even order from home, and have it shipped for free to the bookstore, so that when I was spending \*other \*money there, it was convenient for me to pick up. ---
**Author:** ![Bijou\_Drains](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bijou_drains/32/2814_2.png) [@Bijou\_Drains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bijou_Drains)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2011, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-borders-about-to-go-under/566387/195 "2011-02-18T12:14:00Z")
We have a local bookstore that is doing great. Maybe it’s because they actually seem to like selling bestsellers. They also bring in a lot of authors to read and sign books including big names. Their only recent problem was somebody embezzled $150k from them over 10 years. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2011, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-borders-about-to-go-under/566387/196 "2011-02-18T13:58:49Z")
> [@elmwood](#): > > I’m not thinking of specialty bookstores, like feminist or mystery bookstores. I’m thinking of independently owned general bookstores that go deep in odd areas. Remember, for a store to be successful, they actually have to sell the products on the shelves. Every independent store is seeking out its own market, even if it doesn’t specify any particular specialty on the sign. There haven’t been a lot of general independent bookstores since the 1990s, really, when Barnes & Noble and Borders captured the general bookstore market. > [@jackdavinci](#): > > My personal gripe is the fondness for trade paperbacks to hike up costs. If I want to read a book for low cost, I’m gonna seek out the regular paperback. There’s really just no point in transitioning from a hardback to a trade paperback. The people who really want to read it despite cost are gonna buy the hardback. The people who are waiting for a cost effective measure are gonna wait for the regular paperback. Who is going to bother with trade paperbacks other than people with vision issues? This is especially annoying with classic works from decades ago. > > I guess there must be a market, or else it wouldn’t happen, but I can’t fathom it. I prefer trade paperbacks to hardbacks, and I have no vision issues. For me, a hardback is something that looks good on a shelf, but a trade paperback or a regular paperback feels a lot better in my hands. ---
**Author:** ![smoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@smoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smoke)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2011, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-borders-about-to-go-under/566387/197 "2011-02-18T14:15:33Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > So, the beginning of the end, eh? Books on the Internet only for a lot of places. People becoming further locked into preexisting prejudices and preferences because of it, just like Internet political discourse – echo chambers. No random discovery, no wonder. Will my nephews never have the pleasures of bookstores like I did? > > And worse – some people saying “good riddance,” that all we NEED is the Internet? > > Gad, I’m depressed. I don’t really think this is the case at all. I’ve discovered tons of books I wouldn’t have read from these message boards alone. I think the chance for random discovery is still there, but just different. I can understand the anxiety over it, so I’m not calling your viewpoint into question, just trying to point out a more optimistic possibility. I actually fear the loss of libraries more, but that’s a whole other topic. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2011, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-borders-about-to-go-under/566387/198 "2011-02-18T14:24:21Z")
> [@jackdavinci](#): > > …My personal gripe is the fondness for trade paperbacks to hike up costs. If I want to read a book for low cost, I’m gonna seek out the regular paperback. There’s really just no point in transitioning from a hardback to a trade paperback. The people who really want to read it despite cost are gonna buy the hardback. The people who are waiting for a cost effective measure are gonna wait for the regular paperback. Who is going to bother with trade paperbacks other than people with vision issues? This is especially annoying with classic works from decades ago. > > I guess there must be a market, or else it wouldn’t happen, but I can’t fathom it. Since I do a bunch of reading while commuting via bus & light rail, I generally prefer the mass market (“regular”) paperbacks. They fit into my purse much more neatly. ---
**Author:** ![smoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@smoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smoke)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2011, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-borders-about-to-go-under/566387/199 "2011-02-18T14:29:51Z")
Reading hardcovers in bed is uncomfortable too. ---
**Author:** ![Lightray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightray/32/391_2.png) [@Lightray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightray)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2011, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-borders-about-to-go-under/566387/200 "2011-02-18T14:37:20Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > Incidentally, Borders (and Angus & Robertson) in Australia [have announced that if you want to use one of their gift cards, you have to spend twice the value of the card to redeem it](http://www.news.com.au/business/breaking-news/borders-ar-book-voucher-holders-to-pay-double/story-e6frfkur-1226008225970)- thus, (as per the example in the linked article) if you have a $25 Gift Card, you’ve got to buy $50 worth of stuff to redeem the card. > > I’m not sure how that works from a legal perspective (ie if they’re actually allowed to do that) but effectively devaluing your gift cards by 50% is… not an encouraging thing to be be doing. I believe their intention is, that if you want to redeem a $25 gift card, you will also need to buy $25 additional goods with actual cash. But you still get the $25 value of your gift card. However, that article is poorly written, and so difficult to grok. In the states, at least, I’m fairly sure several states have passed laws that would restrict such gift card shennanigans. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-borders-about-to-go-under/566387.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-borders-about-to-go-under/566387.md?page=11)