# Is Borders about to go under? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [January 4, 2011, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-borders-about-to-go-under/566387 "2011-01-04T16:46:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![GuanoLad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guanolad/32/42_2.png) [@GuanoLad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GuanoLad)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2011, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-borders-about-to-go-under/566387/221 "2011-02-19T23:57:02Z")
I wonder if this means Amazon will open a branch in Australia. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2011, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-borders-about-to-go-under/566387/222 "2011-02-20T00:00:28Z")
> [@asterion](#): > > When I was a kid, I had the ability to wander in the kid’s section of, wait for it, a library. Which, and correct me if I’m wrong, are being defunded left and right due to budget shortfalls (how’s their patronage these days?)… Having just one option is, last I heard, a really really bad thing, because if that one option ever goes away, you have nothing left. I’d like to know who in this thread thinks a nation without any bookstores is a good thing (or even a neutral thing). (Thought: I wonder if the bookstore’s more constant updating of content compared to a library is a good thing or a bad thing in this context? I was going to mention it, but then realized I wasn’t sure…) ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2011, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-borders-about-to-go-under/566387/223 "2011-02-20T04:49:56Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > Which, and correct me if I’m wrong, are being defunded left and right due to budget shortfalls (how’s their patronage these days?)… Not so much defunded as underfunded. The money is there to keep them running at basic levels, but extras like community programs, job search help or multiple copies of popular items are being slashed. Ironically, library patronage goes through the roof during recessions. Who knew that when people don’t have money they go looking for cheap entertainment? Politicians apparently. > [@](#): > > Having just one option is, last I heard, a really really bad thing, because if that one option ever goes away, you have nothing left. I’d like to know who in this thread thinks a nation without any bookstores is a good thing (or even a neutral thing). No one said the library should be the only option in discovering new books. But all the woe is us talk about Borders closing didn’t seem to acknowledge that every town and city in the US has a big building bursting with books that people can get for free. And beyond that, “bookstores” aren’t going away. And neither is Borders for that matter. Only a quarter of the chain’s stores will be closing, leaving several hundred still in operation. And then there’s B&N and all the local places that still exist (albeit in smaller numbers than even a few years ago). ---
**Author:** ![Lynn\_Bodoni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e47c2d/32.png) [@Lynn\_Bodoni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lynn_Bodoni)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2011, 11:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-borders-about-to-go-under/566387/224 "2011-02-20T11:54:52Z")
> [@](#): > > Ironically, library patronage goes through the roof during recessions. Who knew that when people don’t have money they go looking for cheap entertainment? Politicians apparently. When chatting to one of my local librarians, he said that his branch was seeing a lot more people using the internet at the library, not just for research, but for job searching. And yeah, the library has been a lot busier in the past couple of years. ---
**Author:** ![MsRobyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/90ced4/32.png) [@MsRobyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsRobyn)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2011, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-borders-about-to-go-under/566387/225 "2011-02-20T14:28:13Z")
The Borders nearest us is closing. We went yesterday to see what they still had in stock, which was considerable. Airman got some of the stuff he wanted, I got stuff I wanted, and the sprog got some new manga for his collection. Truthfully, I’m actually kinda glad Borders (or at least that Borders) is closing. There’s a B&N not far from there that is much easier to get to, has fewer tchotchkes, and a bigger (and better) cafe. The only advantage the Borders had was it was a good place to kill time before a movie, which is disincentive to spend a lot on books. ---
**Author:** ![Erdosain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/erdosain/32/7284_2.png) [@Erdosain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Erdosain)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2011, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-borders-about-to-go-under/566387/226 "2011-02-20T15:28:22Z")
I went to the Borders everything-must-go sale yesterday and was unimpressed. Everything in the store was 20% off. Which means, except for mass-market paperbacks and children’s books, everything was still cheaper on Amazon. And you don’t have to wait in line. (The check-out line stretched from the cashiers, to the coffee shop, through the whole store, and ended in the children’s department. Unreal.) I think I’ll wait until everything is 50% off. Otherwise, you are still getting ripped off. ---
**Author:** ![Lucky\_13](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lucky_13/32/13209_2.png) [@Lucky\_13](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lucky_13)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2011, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-borders-about-to-go-under/566387/227 "2011-02-20T17:48:34Z")
I found out earlier this week that the Borders in Pico Rivera is one of the ones that will be closing. After the guy at the register told me about the closure, I decided to get while the getting was good and bought about $60 worth of manga, along with two of the Haruhi Suzumiya light novels (“Light novel” is the term used in Japan for YA novels; someone please correct me if I’m wrong.) It sounds kind of greedy, but I just wanted to get those books before the manga section was all picked over. I want to go back this weekend and take advantage of the discounts. I’m going to miss that particular Borders, because it had a great magazine selection as well as a cafe, plus a children’s section my daughter liked. There’s still a small Borders store in Downey, but the selection is not as good. ---
**Author:** ![Darth\_Panda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ee7513/32.png) [@Darth\_Panda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Panda)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2011, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-borders-about-to-go-under/566387/228 "2011-02-20T18:21:26Z")
I just thought I’d mention that you can ‘wander’ around an online bookstore too, looking at what’s new, what’s popular, checking out different ‘sections’ like american history or science, you can see what else a new favorite writer had written before, and you can see what other people like, reviews and listmania are really helpful too me - usually more so than people at brick and mortar. Anyway, carry on… ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2011, 9:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-borders-about-to-go-under/566387/229 "2011-02-21T09:01:17Z")
> [@GuanoLad](#): > > I wonder if this means Amazon will open a branch in Australia. I hope so, but I doubt it- most people (at least the ones I know) who want books get them from The Book Depository now, and there just doesn’t seem to be the interest here in buying “general stuff” online. People still seem to like going to stores to buy things, which is fine with me since when that stops happening I’m out of a job, more or less. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2011, 9:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-borders-about-to-go-under/566387/230 "2011-02-21T09:35:44Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > … there just doesn’t seem to be the interest here in buying “general stuff” online. People still seem to like going to stores to buy things, which is fine with me since when that stops happening I’m out of a job, more or less. What? The major retailers are hurting so bad they are trying to get GST imposed on international retail sales, they are so desperate to stem the flow of lost sales. Which rock have you been living under for the last few months? Further, [a poll I ran in IMHO](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=592426) suggests that there is a substantial body of people who have a great deal of interest in buying stuff online, even regardless of price. I accept it’s a poll of (mostly) Americans rather than Australians, but I’m going to have to see a far, far better cite for your proposition that there “doesn’t seem to be the interest here in buying “general stuff” online” before I believe a word of it. ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2011, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-borders-about-to-go-under/566387/231 "2011-02-21T12:36:40Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > What? The major retailers are hurting so bad they are trying to get GST imposed on international retail sales, they are so desperate to stem the flow of lost sales. Which rock have you been living under for the last few months? No, Harvey Norman and a few others are/were trying to get GST imposed on international retail sales. The really big players- Coles and Woolworths, amongst others- are wisely staying out of it. Everyone knows that putting GST on online sales still won’t change the fact it’s cheaper to get books, electronics, and stuff like that from overseas. > [@](#): > > I accept it’s a poll of (mostly) Americans rather than Australians, but I’m going to have to see a far, far better cite for your proposition that there “doesn’t seem to be the interest here in buying “general stuff” online” before I believe a word of it. How about “I work in retail and have done for over a decade in varying capacities as both staff and management?” combined with “The queues and number of people in retail shops that I go into” with an element of “Generally talking to people” and, finally, the fact that there aren’t many decent online retailers in Australia? ---
**Author:** ![GuanoLad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guanolad/32/42_2.png) [@GuanoLad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GuanoLad)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2011, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-borders-about-to-go-under/566387/232 "2011-02-21T12:44:56Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > …but I’m going to have to see a far, far better cite for your proposition that there “doesn’t seem to be the interest here in buying “general stuff” online” before I believe a word of it. I agree with **Martini Enfield** in that Australians are okay with buying online for overseas retail, but not so much for local shops, mostly because the online stores we have in Australia suck so much. About the only one I have used is _EzyDVD_ in Adelaide, and now they can’t compete with jaunting down to a local JBs. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2011, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-borders-about-to-go-under/566387/233 "2011-02-21T17:33:00Z")
> [@Erdosain](#): > > I went to the Borders everything-must-go sale yesterday and was unimpressed. Everything in the store was 20% off. Which means, except for mass-market paperbacks and children’s books, everything was still cheaper on Amazon. And you don’t have to wait in line. (The check-out line stretched from the cashiers, to the coffee shop, through the whole store, and ended in the children’s department. Unreal.) > > I think I’ll wait until everything is 50% off. Otherwise, you are still getting ripped off. My experience also. Nothing there worth waiting in line half an hour for. My wife went to a writers’ group meeting there last week, and the manager said that the store found out they were being closed from a news report. The claim was that they were closing non-producing stores, but she said this one had some of the best numbers in California. And it is not competition - the B&N a block away closed just after Christmas. Reminds me of Circuit City, actually. And that is not good. ---
**Author:** ![PunditLisa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/4af34b/32.png) [@PunditLisa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PunditLisa)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2011, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-borders-about-to-go-under/566387/234 "2011-02-21T17:54:27Z")
Just spent the last $16 of a $25 gift card that was sitting in my desk. I used it to replace my missing copy of A&E’s _Pride & Prejudice_ because I like having it in on the shelf for a rainy day such as this. RIP bookstores. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2011, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-borders-about-to-go-under/566387/235 "2011-02-22T00:12:23Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > No, Harvey Norman and a few others are/were trying to get GST imposed on international retail sales. The really big players- Coles and Woolworths, amongst others- are wisely staying out of it. Everyone knows that putting GST on online sales still won’t change the fact it’s cheaper to get books, electronics, and stuff like that from overseas. Horseshit. You said “there just doesn’t seem to be the interest here in buying “general stuff” online”. This has no factual basis whatsoever. It is a _"Martini ‘pull a factoid about what Australians think from my ass’ Enfield_ Special. Precisely which of the major retailers was spearheading campaign to get GST on international internet sales is completely irrelevant. Here are some actual facts: > [@](#): > > [RETAILERS are refusing to back down in the escalating consumer war over GST-free online sales and have fortified their flanks. > > The National Retail Association is the latest body to join the Retail Coalition, which has sparked controversy with its push against offshore web shopping.]([http://www.news.com.au/money/money-matters/retailers-such-as-harvey-norman-borders-target-and-david-jones-defiant-in-online-gst-war/story-e6frfmd9-1225984722790](http://www.news.com.au/money/money-matters/retailers-such-as-harvey-norman-borders-target-and-david-jones-defiant-in-online-gst-war/story-e6frfmd9-1225984722790)) If Australians didn’t have any interest in buying online, why the heck would the National Retail Association and the Retail Coalition start a very unpopular campaign against it? And if Australians didn’t have any interest in buying online, why was there a massive [popular backlash against the campaign](http://www.theage.com.au/business/retailers-gst-call-backlash-20110104-19f38.html)? I guess the backlash was from people who didn’t have any interest in buying online but just had nothing better to do? Does that make sense to you? Furthermore it is hilarious that you mention Coles and Woolworths, in purported support of the idea that Australians don’t have any interest in buying online. Weirdly enough, both [Coles](https://www.colesonline.com.au)and [Woolworths](https://www.homeshop.com.au/website/index.jsp?bmUID=1278398459885&s_kwcid=TC%7C13652%7Cwoolworths%20online%7C%7CS%7Ce%7C6657356162)have their own online grocery stores! I understand their ventures haven’t been enormously successful for logistical reasons but nonetheless the fact they are continuing to try shows there is enough money it to invalidate your comment. Further general quotes on the subject: > [@](#): > > [In the last 12 months](http://www.retailbiz.com.au/2011/01/18/article/Online-grocery-shopping-yet-to-take-off/EGBAPQXMOV.html)to September 2010, half of the Australian population, which is approximately 9.1 million people, have bought a product or service over the internet. > [@](#): > > “[We are at an inflection point in Australian retail where millions of Australians are increasingly choosing to shop online instead of going into a store](http://www.startupsmart.com.au/growth/2011-02-21/conroy-admits-australian-lag-in-online-retailing.html).” > > “Smart local operators acknowledge that consumer behaviour shift and are adopting multi-channel strategies to succeed in ecommerce, as well as using the strong Australian dollar to import more and pass those savings on to their customers.” And then as to this: > [@Martini Enfield](#): > > How about “I work in retail and have done for over a decade in varying capacities as both staff and management?” combined with “The queues and number of people in retail shops that I go into” with an element of “Generally talking to people” and, finally, the fact that there aren’t many decent online retailers in Australia? Anecdote is not the plural of data. You work in electronics retail. No doubt your store is busy but that is reflective of consumer demand in that sector. It doesn’t mean that there isn’t interest here in buying “general stuff” online. Further, even in your sector, there are very good online stores. Umart, Harris Technology and dozens of others are doing extremely well and have captured a significant part of the electronics market. This does not equal “no interest here”. It means the opposite. Further, your comments on retail shops generally border on the bizarre: there are stories daily about how retail is hurting in Australia. Funny quote (obviously tongue in cheek, but nonetheless): > [@](#): > > [If the army is looking for somewhere to put a new shooting range it might want to consider one of Australia’s many shopping malls.](http://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/store-owners-blue-as-shoppers-skip-retail-therapy/story-e6frg8zx-1226004673080)Judging by the number of lunchtime shoppers this week in Melbourne Central, one of Australia’s busiest shopping centres, they could be pretty certain they wouldn’t hit anybody. Finally, the fact that there aren’t many decent online retailers in Australia is beside the point: your comment was made in the context of **Guanolad** wondering if Amazon would open here. That people havn’t got good online stores to go to here does not mean people aren’t interested. Sometimes I wonder if you and I live in the same country: though at least my version of this place can be supported by cites and actual, yanno, facts and stuff. ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2011, 8:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-borders-about-to-go-under/566387/236 "2011-02-22T08:30:29Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > Horseshit. You said “there just doesn’t seem to be the interest here in buying “general stuff” online”. This has no factual basis whatsoever. It is a _"Martini ‘pull a factoid about what Australians think from my ass’ Enfield_ Special. > > […] > > Finally, the fact that there aren’t many decent online retailers in Australia is beside the point: your comment was made in the context of **Guanolad** wondering if Amazon would open here. That people havn’t got good online stores to go to here does not mean people aren’t interested. One would think that if there was demand here, someone would have capitalised on it. They haven’t, for some reason. > [@](#): > > Sometimes I wonder if you and I live in the same country: though at least my version of this place can be supported by cites and actual, yanno, facts and stuff. I wonder that too. Especially because you’re the _only_ poster on the boards who seems to have a problem with my views. At any rate, I was going to compose a longer post tackling your disagreements in more detail, but I’m sure you’ve seen the news (Earthquake in Christchurch) and can appreciate that I’ve got more important things to be worrying about at the moment. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2011, 11:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-borders-about-to-go-under/566387/237 "2011-02-22T11:37:32Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > One would think that if there was demand here, someone would have capitalised on it. They haven’t, for some reason. The crap just keeps piling up. Firstly, there are vast numbers of online stores in Australia. Are you saying the online stores I use don’t exist? Name a line of products that could be bought online and I will find it for you online from Australia. I buy as little as possible from bricks and mortar stores. There is almost nothing I can’t get online. I buy tools from Justtools or Tradetoolsdirect or Carbatec. Mrs P buys groceries from Colesonline. I buy computers and computer parts from Umart. We buy toys from a variety of online places. I buy the usual assortment of odds and sods from ebay Australian sellers. Many other things I just buy from whichever of the massive array of assorted online stores have the cheapest price as indicated by myshopping or one of the other online consolidator sites. Secondly, at the risk of labouring the point (but your last post suggests you need me to) international online purchasing by Australians is so large the retailer assocations ran a highly unpopular campaign against the practice. A campaign so instantly unpopular they pulled their heads in immediately. Which aspect of the utterly, blindingly obvious implication of this for your twaddle about “there not being the interest here” are you struggling to understand? > [@](#): > > Especially because you’re the _only_ poster on the boards who seems to have a problem with my views. There aren’t many Australian posters here to correct you and I am probably amongst the most combative. As you know, many Australians are laid back. That’s why you can sometimes get away with spouting complete tosh that you just made up without getting called on it, much of the time. As I’ve said to you before, in my view as one of a handful of Australians posting here you have a higher duty not to post emphatically stated dribble about what Australians do or believe than you would if you were one of many, where a greater percentage of the readership would know for themselves that your posts are full of it. Furthermore, it is not a question of your “views”. I don’t care what your “views” are: I get shitty with you because you purport to say what _other_ people’s views are, with no apparent reference to reality. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2011, 11:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-borders-about-to-go-under/566387/238 "2011-02-22T11:49:31Z")
For all that I hope your friends and relatives in Christchurch are OK. My mother was there this morning, on holiday. She is fine but had to move out the house she was staying in. ---
**Author:** ![phungi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/phungi/32/395_2.png) [@phungi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/phungi)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2011, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-borders-about-to-go-under/566387/239 "2011-02-28T18:34:40Z")
was in a Borders yesterday (a Sunday) in suburban Philadelphia… there were three people working… one was at the front register, the other two at the coffee shop… no one to ask questions or on the floor… couldn’t be a good sign… ---
**Author:** ![stpauler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@stpauler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stpauler)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2011, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-borders-about-to-go-under/566387/240 "2011-02-28T18:50:18Z")
Went to the Borders in St Paul on Friday night. They had everything up for sale (including a good price on the Kobo, $79). The sales were pretty brisk as there were a lot of shoppers. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-borders-about-to-go-under/566387.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-borders-about-to-go-under/566387.md?page=13)