# Is bringing characters back from the dead generally a cheat? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 2, 2009, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bringing-characters-back-from-the-dead-generally-a-cheat/495124 "2009-05-02T22:24:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![bengangmo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@bengangmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bengangmo)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2009, 11:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bringing-characters-back-from-the-dead-generally-a-cheat/495124/81 "2009-05-07T11:13:21Z")
What the Dynasty Moldovian dream scene reset? ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2009, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bringing-characters-back-from-the-dead-generally-a-cheat/495124/82 "2009-05-07T17:58:06Z")
> [@TBG](#): > > That’s not how Angel came back. No one went to the hell dimension after him. There was just some lightshow in the empty mansion and naked Angel plopped out. They really never fully explained what happened, so most people assume it was “the powers that be” behind it. I’m sure they didn’t think it out that far in advance, of course, but it retrospect it was clearly Jasmine who was behind it, and also who possessed Willow in order to return Angel’s soul in the first place. And probably the snowstorm in “Atonement.” ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2009, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bringing-characters-back-from-the-dead-generally-a-cheat/495124/83 "2009-05-07T20:22:33Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > it was clearly Jasmine who was behind it I never really watched much _Angel_, so I just went “Who?” and looked her up. Apparently she was responsible for a bunch of things that happened in that show, but I didn’t see any reference to her influencing anything in _Buffy_. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2009, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bringing-characters-back-from-the-dead-generally-a-cheat/495124/84 "2009-05-07T20:31:20Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > I never really watched much _Angel_, so I just went “Who?” and looked her up. Apparently she was responsible for a bunch of things that happened in that show, but I didn’t see any reference to her influencing anything in _Buffy_. I don’t mean that it’s explicit, and again I don’t think it was PLANNED years ahead of time, the way Babylon 5 clearly was. But it’s explicit on Angel that Jasmine is one of the Powers That Be, and that she manipulated events to bring herself into being through Cordelia. Since Connor’s birth was a necessary chain in that event (she needed a miraculously conceived child to be her corporeal father). It seems likely, then, that she had been moving Angel around like a Stratego piece for much longer than we saw. I agree with this theory, but it’s largely Mrs. Rhymers’s. If y’all want, I’ll ask her to come back to the Dope and explicate it. ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2009, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bringing-characters-back-from-the-dead-generally-a-cheat/495124/85 "2009-05-07T21:11:33Z")
I get where you’re going and all, and it’s certainly plausible… I just don’t think she’s necessarily the PTB that was responsible for those inexplicable Angel-related things that happened in _Buffy_. Certainly it would fit in with the other manipulations, but don’t you think they would have brought up the \*Buffy \*events if they intended to retcon Jasmine in there, too? NB: I’m using “retcon” here in the general sense of “explanation eventually developed to explain things that happened earlier in the series, which was not necessarily always planned,” not “plot twist that was poorly shoehorned in, and things that were previously known to be true had to be changed to fit this new version of reality.” ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2009, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bringing-characters-back-from-the-dead-generally-a-cheat/495124/86 "2009-05-07T21:35:39Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > I get where you’re going and all, and it’s certainly plausible… I just don’t think she’s necessarily the PTB that was responsible for those inexplicable Angel-related things that happened in _Buffy_. Certainly it would fit in with the other manipulations, but don’t you think they would have brought up the \*Buffy \*events if they intended to retcon Jasmine in there, too? > > NB: I’m using “retcon” here in the general sense of “explanation eventually developed to explain things that happened earlier in the series, which was not necessarily always planned,” not “plot twist that was poorly shoehorned in, and things that were previously known to be true had to be changed to fit this new version of reality.” Again, I don’t think it was planned. Except for the last two seasons of Angel, I doubt the Mutant Enemy\* writing staff thought much further ahead than lunchtime. (Exhibit A: the marvelous but frequently incoherent Buffy season 5.) It’s more that I think that, in writing the Jasmine arc, there was a conscious desire to create a plot influence that brought together a lot of previously-disparate elements. ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2009, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bringing-characters-back-from-the-dead-generally-a-cheat/495124/87 "2009-05-07T21:42:53Z")
Yes, I get that you don’t think it was planned, but rather an idea they had that nicely tied together a bunch of things that had happened. My point was just that, don’t you think they would have explicitly mentioned if Jasmine were responsible for the events that happened in _Buffy_, since they pointed out the \*Angel \*ones she caused? I’m not saying that it \*doesn’t \*fit, I’m just questioning whether they \*intended \*for it to fit with \*Buffy \*as well as _Angel_. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2009, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bringing-characters-back-from-the-dead-generally-a-cheat/495124/88 "2009-05-07T21:56:51Z")
**TBG** said: > [@](#): > > That’s not how Angel came back. No one went to the hell dimension after him. There was just some lightshow in the empty mansion and naked Angel plopped out. They really never fully explained what happened, so most people assume it was “the powers that be” behind it. Crap! You’re right. But I do remember an episode where they went to the Hell Dimension to rescue somebody, and Angel saying that was where he had been. ---
**Author:** ![Ephemera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8baadc/32.png) [@Ephemera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ephemera)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2009, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bringing-characters-back-from-the-dead-generally-a-cheat/495124/89 "2009-05-07T22:00:24Z")
What \*\*Skald \*\*is saying is that his wife completely fanwanked the idea, and though it’s plausible, it wasn’t even at the back of the minds of the writers at any point during the entirety of either show’s run. ---
**Author:** ![TBG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c89c15/32.png) [@TBG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TBG)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2009, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bringing-characters-back-from-the-dead-generally-a-cheat/495124/90 "2009-05-07T22:10:40Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > I’m sure they didn’t think it out that far in advance, of course, but it retrospect it was clearly Jasmine who was behind it, and also who possessed Willow in order to return Angel’s soul in the first place. And probably the snowstorm in “Atonement.” I don’t necessarily disagree. Her worminess was probably 2nd only to Batman in the planning ahead department, but it wasn’t ever explicitly laid out that she was behind those particular incidents, the way it was laid out how much of the stuff on Angel she was behind, so there’s some wiggle room there for other interpretations. ---
**Author:** ![Telcontar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3bc359/32.png) [@Telcontar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telcontar)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2009, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bringing-characters-back-from-the-dead-generally-a-cheat/495124/91 "2009-05-07T22:25:55Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > You’re totally right. I always mix that up in my head–I think it has something to do with my mental tag for season 6 being “Buffy and Spike S&M sexcapades.” 😉 Hmm, maybe I should have kept watching after all… ---
**Author:** ![Small\_Hen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ad7895/32.png) [@Small\_Hen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Small_Hen)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2009, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bringing-characters-back-from-the-dead-generally-a-cheat/495124/92 "2009-05-07T23:03:14Z")
> [@Telcontar](#): > > Hmm, maybe I should have kept watching after all… Trust me, S&M has never been less sexy. ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2009, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bringing-characters-back-from-the-dead-generally-a-cheat/495124/93 "2009-05-08T14:35:27Z")
James Marsters does look awfully good with his shirt off, though. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2009, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bringing-characters-back-from-the-dead-generally-a-cheat/495124/94 "2009-05-08T14:49:43Z")
> [@AlsoNamedBort](#): > > I’m surprised we’ve gotten through 37 posts without mention of X-Men’s stepchild: Heroes. > > The show which has had the same main character “die” at the end of every season only to be revived. The biggest cheat though was bringing Noah back. His death had been predicted for the whole season, and was an extremely dramatic moment when he finally died…only to be brought back at the end of the episode. One of the main reasons I stopped watching it. At the point in season 3 that they brought back a character that had “died” before the first episode, I actually shouted at the television “Goddammit, doesn’t anyone _die_ on this show?” Fortunately they started bumping off a few characters soon after, but still. ---
**Author:** ![Enderw24](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ba9def/32.png) [@Enderw24](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enderw24)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2009, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bringing-characters-back-from-the-dead-generally-a-cheat/495124/95 "2009-05-08T15:57:51Z")
I can’t believe so many of you are using Buffy as an example of a resurrection that was NOT a cheat. This is a pretty textbook example of a cheat if ever there was one. The death happened at the end of season 5. It was uncertain whether Buffy would still be on the air (as it was currently cancelled by the WB). Even assuming it got picked up by UPN, it was uncertain whether Sarah Michelle Gellar would come back as Buffy. They wrote that death with the very real possibility it was final because no one knew one way or the other. So when everything worked out and they’re back on the air with Sarah resigning a contract, they’ve GOT to find a way to bring her back. Now, whether you like the resolution or not is irrelevant to this discussion. It’s a cheat, through and through. ---
**Author:** ![Pazu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pazu/32/15522_2.png) [@Pazu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pazu)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2009, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bringing-characters-back-from-the-dead-generally-a-cheat/495124/96 "2009-05-08T17:05:29Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Feel free to mention stories in which it IS and is NOT a cheat, and why. > > I say it’s generally a cheat; bringing characters back from the dead generally cheapens the original story, especially if the character died in a heroic sacrifice. **Not A Cheat:** Colossus’s return in _Astonishing X-Men_, following his death in _Uncanny X-Men_ #390. Granted that the latter was due to a “heroic sacrifice”, it was still a contrived situation that I’m happy to ignore. **A Cheat:** The title character of _The Iron Giant_ reassembling himself at the end of the movie. Enough said. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2009, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bringing-characters-back-from-the-dead-generally-a-cheat/495124/97 "2009-05-08T20:06:02Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > Oh, and something I just thought of here… > > Perhaps one thing that helps define “good” resurrections is their juxtaposition with meaningful, permanent death in the same story? For instance, in Buffy, Tara, Anya, Kendra, Jenny… These are dead characters who stay dead. Well, one of those died in the last episode, that’s not hard. ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2009, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bringing-characters-back-from-the-dead-generally-a-cheat/495124/98 "2009-05-08T20:12:04Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > Well, one of those died in the last episode, that’s not hard. Still meaningful. And just because there was less opportunity doesn’t mean a more hack-ish writer wouln’t have had the character in question somehow survive and make it to the bus at the last second. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2009, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bringing-characters-back-from-the-dead-generally-a-cheat/495124/99 "2009-05-08T20:57:35Z")
I think with Buffy people are reacting to a few conditions. 1. The show was “ **Buffy** : The Vampire Slayer”, not “The Slayer” or “The Scooby Gang” or “Joss Whedon’s show”. For the show to return, we knew there had to be a Buffy. One way or another. 2. Joss had already proven he could write things away. He had made Angel into Angelus, then sent him to the Hell Dimension, then brought him back, then shipped him off to his own series. He had turned Willow into a lesbian after breaking her heart on a werewolf. He had taken Spike from evil to evil with a chip to evil with a chip but fighting demons. So it wasn’t a matter of doubting if it would or could be done, it was merely how. We knew the universe had the capability. Yes, Buffy died at the end of Season 5 as the end of the series. The series was renewed on a new channel, and SMG signed on. That made bringing Buffy back easier. But in the context that Buffy had to return and SMG was on board, what did Joss do within the story? 1. He didn’t make it easy to bring her back. It took extensive effort by Willow, who turns into a major badass witch, and it helps put her on the path to evil. So, just because Willow brought back Buffy, note that it didn’t work out so well when Dawn tried to bring back her mother. Therefore, resurrection was not easy within the show. 2. Doing so was a major mistake. They thought they were rescuing Buffy from hell. Instead, they took her out of heaven. They took her from her reward of peace and happiness and brought her back to pain and dreariness and blah. So her heroic sacrifice might have been negated by returning her, but the heroic reward for the sacrifice was negated, too. 3. Bringing Buffy back released The First into the world, a staggeringly powerful new set of old evil that amped up the stakes. This was not a zero sum game, it put Buffy back in play but up against tougher odds. So, we knew going in that resurrection was possible in this universe. We knew Joss would do it if the show was brought back. The method was not cheap and easy, to make you wonder why they didn’t do it more often. The results were misunderstood and not good for the character, and they introduced new complications to the world. All of that sums to “not a cheat”. ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2009, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bringing-characters-back-from-the-dead-generally-a-cheat/495124/100 "2009-05-08T21:02:44Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > I think with Buffy people are reacting to a few conditions. [snip] All of that sums to “not a cheat”. QFT, but I’m not actually going to quote the whole thing, because it’s so well reasoned that it’s fairly long. 😃 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bringing-characters-back-from-the-dead-generally-a-cheat/495124.md?page=4)