# Is Britain Broken? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 16, 2009, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-britain-broken/503213 "2009-07-16T12:53:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Walker\_in\_Eternity](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/46a35a/32.png) [@Walker\_in\_Eternity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walker_in_Eternity)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2009, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-britain-broken/503213/1 "2009-07-16T12:53:37Z")
In many respects things are better than they have ever been, better medical care and the like, but there seems to be something fundamentally wrong with our society, nobody has respect for anyone anymore, there is a general air of rudeness and an impression of every man for themselves. I am not the only one to think this. [This](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8150271.stm) article was on the BBC website. A few select snippets, that I agree with: > [@](#): > > In Dudley, Worcestershire, lollipop ladies - the gentlest of public servants - say they are starting to get abuse from “you’re in my way” motorists. > > ``` > Yvonne, a lollipop lady for 15 years said: "They blame us for holding up the traffic, which we're not. We're just trying to get kids to school safely." > > She said people "aren't as polite as they used to be". > > "It takes a lot to get people to say 'Good Morning'." > > ``` and > [@](#): > > When you compare much of our behaviour to the rest of Europe, the picture that emerges is of a country that is jostling for the lead in the sickest lifestyle in Western Europe. > … > Government figures show our adults are the most obese; 11 to 15-year-olds who drink, are drinking more. The average weekly intake is over six pints. > > ``` > The Children's Society charity says a higher percentage of these youngsters are getting drunk than in any other OECD country. > > The World Health Organisation has found that our 15 to 24-year-olds have much higher incidences of syphilis, gonorrhoea and chlamydia. > > ``` and > [@](#): > > On violent youth crime, the Youth Justice Board says offences of robbery have increased by 29% since 2004, violence against people has risen by 20% and drug offences and criminal damage is up by 12%. > > ``` > Britain's murder rate has doubled since the 1970s and is now one of Western Europe's highest. > ... > For example, the appalling story of two boys who repeatedly stamped on the head of a girl in Lancashire because she was dressed as a Goth. > > ``` and finally (for now). > [@](#): > > Dr David Halpern, former director of the Cabinet Office’s social exclusion unit, thinks the phrase (ghettoisation) paints too bleak a picture. > > ``` > But he also says the deep cleavage running through the country is inflicting great damage on the common good. > > The chances, he says, of a child from the top 50% of high-income families getting into trouble with the police is one in a 1,000. > > For a child born into the bottom five percent, it is one in five - 200 times higher. > > It is the increasing ghettoisation of Britain that leads Martin Innes, professor of the Police Science Institute at Cardiff University to conclude: "We are approaching a point where we can either come back from the brink or we're sailing over the abyss." > > ``` So are we heading for the brink? Is it too late to turn it around? Should I emmigrate as soon as possible? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2009, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-britain-broken/503213/2 "2009-07-16T13:21:04Z")
> [@Walker\_in\_Eternity](#): > > In many respects things are better than they have ever been, better medical care and the like, but there seems to be something fundamentally wrong with our society, nobody has respect for anyone anymore, there is a general air of rudeness and an impression of every man for themselves. > > \ > So are we heading for the brink? No, you are maturing into Americans. Congratulations! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2009, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-britain-broken/503213/3 "2009-07-16T13:48:55Z")
It’s all Gordon Brown’s fault, innit? Bloody bahstid. ---
**Author:** ![ColdPhoenix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6bbea6/32.png) [@ColdPhoenix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ColdPhoenix)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2009, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-britain-broken/503213/4 "2009-07-16T13:56:55Z")
It’s not all bad. They’ve picked the stats to help the opinion they want to get across for the article. Eg This “Britain’s murder rate has doubled since the 1970s and is now one of Western Europe’s highest.” looks bad but they don’t say that it’s the lowest it’s been for 20 years: > **[BBC NEWS | UK | Killings are lowest in 20 years](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8153392.stm)** > > The number of murders and manslaughter has dropped by 17% to a 20-year low, crime figures for England and Wales show. ---
**Author:** ![Wallenstein](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b5a626/32.png) [@Wallenstein](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wallenstein)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2009, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-britain-broken/503213/5 "2009-07-16T14:46:42Z")
I blame Margaret Thatcher. ---
**Author:** ![purplehorseshoe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/purplehorseshoe/32/2996_2.png) [@purplehorseshoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/purplehorseshoe)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2009, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-britain-broken/503213/6 "2009-07-16T15:22:59Z")
**BrainGlutton** beat me to it. Were you planning to emigrate to the United States? No sense coming over here if your country is simply turning into an island version of us. 🙂 Isn’t there some famous quote about how the youth of today are ever more rebellious towards authority and wearing scandalous clothing and society is going to hell but the whole thing was written by a famous Greek dead guy a zillion years ago? My Google-fu is failing me, but I didn’t sleep well last night so maybe it’s just my brain that isn’t functioning. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2009, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-britain-broken/503213/7 "2009-07-16T15:35:58Z")
No. Next question. ---
**Author:** ![dangermom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e274bd/32.png) [@dangermom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dangermom)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2009, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-britain-broken/503213/8 "2009-07-16T18:43:10Z")
I’m not on the spot, but I read a lot about the UK (bad case of Anglophilia, I know, it’s pathetic) and I will say that a lot of what I read worries and depresses me. I hope it’s not as bad as I fear it is. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2009, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-britain-broken/503213/9 "2009-07-16T21:03:28Z")
All right, who broke the Britain ? Own up. It was perfectly fine this morning when I left for work, and now look at it. All mangy and crimy. \*Someone \*tampered with it. Nobody gets dessert until you tell me who broke it. You won’t get punished, I just want the truth. Well ? ---
**Author:** ![Indistinguishable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/90ced4/32.png) [@Indistinguishable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indistinguishable)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2009, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-britain-broken/503213/10 "2009-07-16T21:08:37Z")
> [@purplehorseshoe](#): > > Isn’t there some famous quote about how the youth of today are ever more rebellious towards authority and wearing scandalous clothing and society is going to hell but the whole thing was written by a famous Greek dead guy a zillion years ago? “We live in a decaying age. Young people no longer respect their parents. They are rude and impatient. They frequently inhabit taverns and have no self control.” Said to be an inscription from an Egyptian tomb circa 4000 B.C. I’d like to actually see a reputable source for it, though (I’m told by the Internet that it’s quoted in R. Buckminster Fuller’s “I Seem to be a Verb”, but haven’t actually seen whatever details that provides on its origins). ---
**Author:** ![Indistinguishable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/90ced4/32.png) [@Indistinguishable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indistinguishable)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2009, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-britain-broken/503213/11 "2009-07-16T21:11:40Z")
The Internet also contains “What is happening to our young people? They disrespect their elders, they disobey their parents. They ignore the law. They riot in the streets….Their morals are decaying. What is to become of them?” from Plato, 4th century B.C. and “When I was young, we were taught to be discreet and respectful of elders, but the present youth are exceedingly disrespectful and impatient of restraint” from Hesiod, 8th century B.C. Though, again, I don’t know how accurate these are. ---
**Author:** ![Indistinguishable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/90ced4/32.png) [@Indistinguishable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indistinguishable)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2009, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-britain-broken/503213/12 "2009-07-16T21:14:07Z")
Hell, there’s a whole bunch of them [here](http://www.anxietyculture.com/antisocial.htm). ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2009, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-britain-broken/503213/13 "2009-07-16T21:47:42Z")
Of course, it’s possible that society is getting more crappy now as well as at the time Plato was writing. ---
**Author:** ![purplehorseshoe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/purplehorseshoe/32/2996_2.png) [@purplehorseshoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/purplehorseshoe)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2009, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-britain-broken/503213/14 "2009-07-16T21:54:22Z")
Ah. The one attributed to Plato - that’s the one I had in mind. I kept trying to attribute it to Cicero, and that’s why I couldn’t find it. Thanks. So there you go, **Walker In Eternity**. England _is_, in fact, going to hell in a handbasket and moreover has been doing so since before it was England in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2009, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-britain-broken/503213/15 "2009-07-16T22:47:17Z")
OTOH, nations have their good periods and their bad periods- in fact, it would be far more surprising to me if \*every \*generation were identical to the one before it. History shows us countless examples of nations in decline: politically, economically, socially. Why can’t Britain be going through one of those periods right now? ---
**Author:** ![salinqmind](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3ec8ea/32.png) [@salinqmind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/salinqmind)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2009, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-britain-broken/503213/16 "2009-07-17T00:43:11Z")
don’t jump all over me, but could it have something to do with alcohol intake? I’ve read that the amount of booze consumed by the Brits is astounding and that the most dangerous country in Europe to be in is England - when the pubs let out. (maybe they’ve always been heavy drinkers? and the problems they’re having now are unrelated.) or racial tension due to so many immigrants? ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2009, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-britain-broken/503213/17 "2009-07-17T05:52:28Z")
It’s a sinking ship! What should you do? ---
**Author:** ![ianzin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/ed655f/32.png) [@ianzin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ianzin)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2009, 12:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-britain-broken/503213/18 "2009-07-17T12:00:18Z")
At any given time, there is a vast amount of statistical data and anecdotal ‘impressions’ to choose from. If you are selective enough, you can make a case for almost any verdict, from ‘the country is going to the dogs’ to ‘this is the best of all possible worlds’. Some (most?) sections of the media make it their business to trade in alarmist, doom-mongering headlines, because that’s how to get attention and make money. In some cases the headlines betray a political agenda. If you want to attack the current government, it makes sense to run ‘what a mess we’re in’ headlines. Even without the inevitable media distortion, it is always easier to notice the bad news than the good. We notice the one teenager who goes on a delinquent crime spree. We don’t notice the 1000 who are bright, likeable, honest, hard-working and who devote some of their spare time to helping the elderly. We notice the one company that fails. We don’t notice the 1000 small-to-medium sized businesses that have been quietly successful for decades and are still thriving. As with anything else, the impression you form depends to a large extent on the comparisons you choose to make, and the criteria you choose to employ. As a Brit, sure, I’m disenchanted with some aspects of our society and way of life. But I recently spent six days in Saint Petersberg. Over the course of many conversations with a local tour guide, I learned a lot about life in Russia today. I came back to the UK feeling that I lived in paradise. We certainly have some regrettable national characteristics, but we have some good ones as well. Select your evidence, ans you get your verdict. ---
**Author:** ![Walker\_in\_Eternity](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/46a35a/32.png) [@Walker\_in\_Eternity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walker_in_Eternity)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2009, 12:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-britain-broken/503213/19 "2009-07-17T12:16:43Z")
> [@purplehorseshoe](#): > > Ah. The one attributed to Plato - that’s the one I had in mind. I kept trying to attribute it to Cicero, and that’s why I couldn’t find it. Thanks. > > So there you go, **Walker In Eternity**. England _is_, in fact, going to hell in a handbasket and moreover has been doing so since before it was England in the first place. Thanks, I keep thinking Marcus Aurelius said something similar too, but I could be mistaken. ---
**Author:** ![Walker\_in\_Eternity](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/46a35a/32.png) [@Walker\_in\_Eternity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walker_in_Eternity)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2009, 12:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-britain-broken/503213/20 "2009-07-17T12:22:43Z")
> [@salinqmind](#): > > don’t jump all over me, but could it have something to do with alcohol intake? I’ve read that the amount of booze consumed by the Brits is astounding and that the most dangerous country in Europe to be in is England - when the pubs let out. (maybe they’ve always been heavy drinkers? and the problems they’re having now are unrelated.) or racial tension due to so many immigrants? Alcohol is certainly a factor in inner city violence IMO, but I see drinking as more of a symptom of the state of society than the cause. People in the UK have always drank, my Dad said that in the 50s people were drinking in pubs several nights a week, because it was cheaper, now booze is expensive to drink out, so people buy it cheap from supermarkets and stay at home more. Similarly I was born in 1970 so started my drinking career in the mid-late 80s when it was possible to go out three or four times a week even on a low salary. There didn’t seem to be much trouble then as most of the violence in the 80s and 90s seemed to be football related and I was never interested in that sport. I think **ianzin** has hit the nail on the head. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-britain-broken/503213.md?page=2)