# Is Britain "post-Christian"? What about the rest of Europe? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 16, 2003, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-britain-post-christian-what-about-the-rest-of-europe/182282 "2003-06-16T19:59:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2011, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-britain-post-christian-what-about-the-rest-of-europe/182282/41 "2011-08-04T17:38:02Z")
Barbara Tuchman, in A distant Mirror, quotes a bishop in the 1300’s complaining that some gentry were of the opinion that people, like animals, lived and died and that was it - no afterlife. SO free-thinkers have always been there, it’s just whether the climate allowed them to express themselves without fear. I would take the contrary view, that the reformation and the Catholic reaction heightened a focus on religion that had been waning for years. Religion was actually a substitute for economic and ethnic strife, so I suppose it wore out in Europe after a while once the furor died down and more explicitly ethnic/nationalistic wars gained focus. (i.e. there was not much of a religious component to Napoleon’s wars, IIRC. He basically left alone the various conquered countries to practice whatever religions they wanted?) ---
**Author:** ![code\_grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f4b2a3/32.png) [@code\_grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/code_grey)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2011, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-britain-post-christian-what-about-the-rest-of-europe/182282/42 "2011-08-04T18:04:29Z")
> [@Romeo\_and\_Whatsherface](#): > > I’m wondering when this fundamental change in European religious beliefs and practice occurred. The Orwell quotation in the OP indicates it was quite some time ago, but when and why? perhaps in late 18th and 19th centuries due to anti-religion propaganda originating from French Enlightenment? At its apex these enlightened folks tried to stamp out Catholic church in France although it didn’t work out at the time. Orwell’s claim that there was more religious feeling in England than on the Continent probably goes back to the issue of existence of evangelizing sects outside the state church. The state church has no need to evangelize and it does not recruit its clerics for evangelistic aptitude, whereas outfits like Methodists, Salvation Army etc either evangelize or perish. And the results of this are going to rub off even onto people who are not directly involved with them, through influence on the cultural zeitgeist. That of course raises the question of why religion in the Netherlands which similarly had lots of sects and full toleration did not follow the same trajectory. ---
**Author:** ![Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hypnagogic_jerk/32/4252_2.png) [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypnagogic_Jerk)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2011, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-britain-post-christian-what-about-the-rest-of-europe/182282/43 "2011-08-04T18:18:52Z")
> [@njtt](#): > > I think a large part (I don’t say all) of the answer lies in the way that religion in the USA has been co-opted politically, so that being “Christian” (especially Christian fundamentalist) has, for many, become almost synonymous with being deeply conservative. That is not true in other countries, where Christians are found all across the political spectrum, and many Christians even believe that Christian principles mandate socialism. (Such people do exist in the USA, but in much smaller numbers and with much less political visibility and influence.) In large part, American “Christian conservatives” are not conservative because they are Christian, they are “Christian” (in quotes because to most European Christians, even relatively politically conservative ones, it is a weird, perverted and even heretical version of Christianity) because they are radically conservative. (Of course, they are not conservative in any very literal sense, either: more like radical right-wing reactionary.) Were you the one who posted in a recent thread about why the US is (apparently) more religious than Britain to point out that the greatest difference is probably why “nominal Christians” demonstrate faith? I’m asking because this post was really compelling to me. The gist of it was that while Christian Britons tend to define themselves as such mostly for cultural reasons, Christian Americans tend to do so for political reasons. In other words, they can over the course of a single conversation express doubt as to the existence of God, while claiming that anyone who supports some political ideas they disagree with is clearly anti-Christian and therefore going to Hell. I found that interesting because it showed that perhaps asking oneself why the US is more religious than other Western countries is the wrong question. Perhaps it actually isn’t all that religious, but religion isn’t used as an identifier in the same way as in other Western countries. > [@md2000](#): > > Other than the obviously Catholic prime ministers, like Trudeau, Chretien, Turner, Mulroney and Paul Martin, I have no idea what denomination any of our other prime ministers are - Clark, Deifenbaker, even Harper. This depends on what you mean by “Catholic”. Do you mean someone who’s baptised as a Catholic, or who’d claim to be Catholic on a survey, or someone who’s actually practicing Catholicism and believing in the tenets of the religion? By the first and probably second definition, they’d likely be, but by the third, there’s no evidence of it. I’m asking because you say Quebec is “overwhelmingly Catholic”, and it’s true that probably 80-85% of its population would claim to be so, probably the highest proportion of identified religious people in Canada, but at the same time it has what may be the lowest level of actual religious practice in the country. And even these identified Catholics may not be all that Catholic, or even Christian, or even theistic in actual belief if you poke further. It’s interesting, and reminiscent of the way, in many different countries, people use religious affiliation as a way of expressing their belonging to a particular community, not as a shorthand for their actual beliefs. And what’s also interesting is that places with large numbers of vocal Evangelical Christians (the US, for example) also tend to have correspondingly large numbers of vocal atheists, while traditionally Catholic countries have fewer vocal people on both sides. ---
**Author:** ![kaltkalt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bb73d2/32.png) [@kaltkalt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaltkalt)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2011, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-britain-post-christian-what-about-the-rest-of-europe/182282/44 "2011-08-04T19:20:45Z")
> [@bump](#): > > Where do you live that the “religiosity” is “unbearable and insulting”? > > I mean, I live in North Texas, which is awfully high on the “ostentatious” Christianity meter, and with the exception of the occasional Bible-thumper who I run into, or the occasional de-facto assumption that I’m Christian (which I am, but not any one particular denomination), I don’t see all that much intrusion of religious stuff into daily life. I live in South Texas (Houston) and I see jesusfuckers everywhere. Hell, Rick Perry, our stupid inbred christofascist idiot of a governor who makes George W. Bush look brilliant, is holding a huge nazi-style christian rally here at the Reliant Center this month. Everyone has to take an oath affirming a belief in Chraaaaast if they want to attend. He’s also told texans to pray for rain, since we’re having a drought. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Robson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gary_robson/32/3448_2.png) [@Gary\_Robson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Robson)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2011, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-britain-post-christian-what-about-the-rest-of-europe/182282/45 "2011-08-04T20:58:11Z")
> [@kaltkalt](#): > > I live in South Texas (Houston) and I see jesusfuckers everywhere. Hell, Rick Perry, our stupid inbred christofascist idiot of a governor who makes George W. Bush look brilliant, is holding a huge nazi-style christian rally here at the Reliant Center this month. Everyone has to take an oath affirming a belief in Chraaaaast if they want to attend. He’s also told texans to pray for rain, since we’re having a drought. [moderator warning] I already informed you once that this kind of post is inappropriate in the GQ forum. This is a formal warning. Keep this up and it will become a suspension. [/moderator warning] ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2011, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-britain-post-christian-what-about-the-rest-of-europe/182282/46 "2011-08-04T22:20:58Z")
Another reason could be Europe’s long history of outright religious warfare and of state religions imposed withe extreme brutality. That sort of thing can leave a cultural legacy of distrust and fear towards religion, especially aggressive religion. America on the other hand is a unified nation that hasn’t permitted religious conflict to get out of hand; even its one civil war wasn’t religion-centered. Perhaps if America had a history of the states engaging in religious wars with each other it would by now be less religious. ---
**Author:** ![hibernicus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hibernicus/32/2802_2.png) [@hibernicus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hibernicus)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2011, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-britain-post-christian-what-about-the-rest-of-europe/182282/47 "2011-08-04T22:44:30Z")
> [@Romeo\_and\_Whatsherface](#): > > I’m wondering when this fundamental change in European religious beliefs and practice occurred. In Ireland it mainly occurred in the last 25 years, and is continuing. In 1985, the rate of weekly attendance at religious services was 88%. In 2008 it was 40%. One may speculate as to the reasons, but they may include increased prosperity and urbanisation, a fading away of the idea that Catholicism is an essential part of the Irish identity, reduced social pressure, reduced power and influence of the local priest, disillusionment with the way the Catholic church wielded (and often abused) its power over society, exposure to outside influences, etc. ---
**Author:** ![DeptfordX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e68b1a/32.png) [@DeptfordX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DeptfordX)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2011, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-britain-post-christian-what-about-the-rest-of-europe/182282/48 "2011-08-04T23:30:49Z")
There’s a famous 17th century folk song about the flexibility of belief in England. > **[The Vicar of Bray (song)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Vicar_of_Bray_(song))** > > "The Vicar of Bray" is an eighteenth century satirical song recounting the career of The Vicar of Bray and his contortions of principle in order to retain his ecclesiastic office despite the changes in the Established Church through the course of several English monarchs. The song is particularly interesting because of the number of (rather specific) allusions to English religious and political doctrines and events crammed into it, justifying the close reading and annotation given here. > The ge... ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2011, 6:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-britain-post-christian-what-about-the-rest-of-europe/182282/49 "2011-08-05T06:42:02Z")
> [@hibernicus](#): > > In Ireland it mainly occurred in the last 25 years, and is continuing. In 1985, the rate of weekly attendance at religious services was 88%. In 2008 it was 40%. > > One may speculate as to the reasons, but they may include increased prosperity and urbanisation, a fading away of the idea that Catholicism is an essential part of the Irish identity, reduced social pressure, reduced power and influence of the local priest, disillusionment with the way the Catholic church wielded (and often abused) its power over society, exposure to outside influences, etc. I’d say they’d be doing a bit better if they hadn’t have spent so much time raping kids and telling everybody else what to do. ---
**Author:** ![Alka\_Seltzer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c89c15/32.png) [@Alka\_Seltzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alka_Seltzer)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2011, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-britain-post-christian-what-about-the-rest-of-europe/182282/50 "2011-08-05T17:22:22Z")
Here is an interesting article about a [Dutch atheist priest](http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-14417362), a member of the mainstream protestant church in the Netherlands. > [@](#): > > A study by the Free University of Amsterdam found that one-in-six clergy in the PKN and six other smaller denominations was either agnostic or atheist. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2011, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-britain-post-christian-what-about-the-rest-of-europe/182282/51 "2011-08-06T16:20:28Z")
> [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](#): > > This depends on what you mean by “Catholic”. Do you mean someone who’s baptised as a Catholic, or who’d claim to be Catholic on a survey, or someone who’s actually practicing Catholicism and believing in the tenets of the religion? By the first and probably second definition, they’d likely be, but by the third, there’s no evidence of it. > > I’m asking because you say Quebec is “overwhelmingly Catholic”, and it’s true that probably 80-85% of its population would claim to be so, probably the highest proportion of identified religious people in Canada, but at the same time it has what may be the lowest level of actual religious practice in the country. And even these identified Catholics may not be all that Catholic, or even Christian, or even theistic in actual belief if you poke further. It’s interesting, and reminiscent of the way, in many different countries, people use religious affiliation as a way of expressing their belonging to a particular community, not as a shorthand for their actual beliefs. And what’s also interesting is that places with large numbers of vocal Evangelical Christians (the US, for example) also tend to have correspondingly large numbers of vocal atheists, while traditionally Catholic countries have fewer vocal people on both sides. Very true. That’s why I think it’s interesting that even in the mid-70’s the government could not convict Morgentaler of performing abortions. Not that the stats are any less true of any other established religion, I’m sure - and also of politicians. Most Canadian politicians had no problem reconciling their Catholic heritage with pro-abortion views, while Ted Kennedy and other US politicians had run-ins with some catholic heirarchy over the issue. My point was that given the large number of nominal catholics and non-christians, espousing a fundamentalist protestant line does not gain the same support in Canada as in overwhelmingly (nominally) protestant USA - the ideological divide between protestant sects is not as significant as the one between catholic and protestant. As an atheist raised a catholic, I find zealous evangelical behaviour far more off-putting than I imagine someone would who grew up with that stuff, even if they don’t personally believe. I also see the same attitude in the more urban areas of the USA, where the Catholic church and others have the same problem of declining attendance. I recently heard a friend mention that his friend and former schoolmate is a republican New Jersey state senator, and had to pretend to go along with the tea party conservative values and fundamentalist church values (like anti-abortion) because it was political suicide otherwise. He is Republican (like Giuliani) for economic/social views, not religious or small-minded reasons. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-britain-post-christian-what-about-the-rest-of-europe/182282.md?page=2)