# Is Britain trying to give away the Empire? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 8, 2002, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-britain-trying-to-give-away-the-empire/135876 "2002-11-08T13:41:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2002, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-britain-trying-to-give-away-the-empire/135876/1 "2002-11-08T13:41:01Z")
Churchill must be rolling over. What did I miss? Is it a money thing? Since when did Britain care what the Spaniards thought? [http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/europe/11/08/gibraltar/index.html](http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/europe/11/08/gibraltar/index.html) ---
**Author:** ![grimpixie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ecb155/32.png) [@grimpixie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grimpixie)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2002, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-britain-trying-to-give-away-the-empire/135876/2 "2002-11-08T13:44:30Z")
Which empire was that again…? Having “given away” everything else, holding onto Gibralter becomes the exception rather than the norm. Grim ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2002, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-britain-trying-to-give-away-the-empire/135876/3 "2002-11-08T13:49:58Z")
These guys seem to consider themselves British as do the Falkland residents. (Really, I just wanted to quote Winston: “I did not become the King’s Prime Minister to oversee the dissolution of the British Empire.” Thank you.) ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2002, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-britain-trying-to-give-away-the-empire/135876/4 "2002-11-08T13:53:48Z")
I think a 99% vote in favour of the status quo should be respected. And in recent years I’ve come to think that the Falklands War was justifiable, given the wishes of the population there (at the time I was blinded to this due to my hatred of Thatcher specifically and war in general). I’m trying to work out Blair’s motivation for negotiation; probably behind-the-scenes problems at the EU, and the bad behaviour of the Spanish government at the Gib border. Either that, or a Spaniard in the works. ---
**Author:** ![Charlie\_Tan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/charlie_tan/32/12582_2.png) [@Charlie\_Tan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charlie_Tan)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2002, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-britain-trying-to-give-away-the-empire/135876/5 "2002-11-08T13:56:47Z")
Well. There’s no need for it really. Gib’s status as a colony is pretty weird. It had a tremendous stratig value, but today, that’s almost obsolete. It’s costing Britain some money, but not giving very much back. hy hold on to it? That the inhabitants voted no isn’t very strange. The town and the place is ugly, the surrounding parts, _La Linea de Concepción_ is prolly the ugliest part of Spain, which for most other parts is a beautiful country. Gib has two things going for it: Taxhaven and The Rock. The rock would still get some touristtrade, but no one would go to Gibraltar, if it wasn’t a tax free paradise. Last time I was there, a few years ago, a litre of 100 proof vodka, went for £3 and a carton of smokes for £4. Everything is cheap there and there really are very few Brits nowadays. Some soldiers stationed and a few cops. The natives are mostly of the same type as the Maltese, meaning a weird mixture. Most stores are owned by indians and they sell a lot of home electronics. The other aspect is off shore banking. A lot a (more or less shady) companies have there main office in Gibraltar and The Spanish are upset becuase of all the money laundred there. Spain is a big entry point for illigal drugs coming into the EU and Gibraltar is a good place to stash money, no questions asked, no taxes paid. All in all, the English have nothing to gain from keeping it. And even though the Spanish, for the longest time, looked upon Gib the way Cubans looked on Guantanamo, today, they want to clean out all the illegal activities that allegedly go on there. ---
**Author:** ![Charlie\_Tan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/charlie_tan/32/12582_2.png) [@Charlie\_Tan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charlie_Tan)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2002, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-britain-trying-to-give-away-the-empire/135876/6 "2002-11-08T13:58:29Z")
**jjim** They’re not behaving badly, they’re just doing it by the book. To the extreme. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2002, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-britain-trying-to-give-away-the-empire/135876/7 "2002-11-08T14:04:10Z")
Not quite? > [@](#): > > I mentioned earlier that the enjoyment of our EC rights was being impeded. How and why is this happening? The reality of the matter is that Spain not only actively seeks Gibraltar’s exclusion from crucial EC measures, but conducts her relationship with Gibraltar as if we were not an intrinsic part of the EC. So, for example, and quite extraordinarily, there are no maritime or air links between Gibraltar and Spain because Spain forbids them. Restrictions are still placed on civil airliners approaching Gibraltar airport. Spain operates the land border in a way that often leads to very long delays in crossing. There are no red and green customs channels in operation, most vehicles are inspected and traffic is channelled into a single file regardless of volume. Such border regimes are unknown in the Western World, let alone within the European Union. > > Gibraltar airport has, because of The Spanish veto, been excluded from participation in the EC Air Liberalisation “Open Skies” regime. Spain refuses to recognise Gibraltar identity cards, which are issued in EU format, as valid travel documents even though the Commission has indicated that they are valid; Spain even refuses to recognise Gibraltar’s international telephone area code (350) even though, consistently, she recognises our telex code. Spain is the only country in Europe from which you cannot dial Gibraltar by satellite via our 350 international area code. Spain seeks to exclude us from the External Frontiers Convention and from the so called “Monti-Package” of Directives relating to free movement of people, even though Gibraltar is manifestly an integral part of Europe. From a [speech by the Governor to the EU](http://frontier.gibnet.gi/denials/brussels.html) in 1997. ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2002, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-britain-trying-to-give-away-the-empire/135876/8 "2002-11-08T14:04:13Z")
What pops into my head is, “Compare and contrast with Northern Ireland”, where you have another group of people insisting that they consider themselves British. I suppose the big difference is that Ireland never formally ceded Ulster to Britain in a treaty. (did they?) ---
**Author:** ![Charlie\_Tan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/charlie_tan/32/12582_2.png) [@Charlie\_Tan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charlie_Tan)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2002, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-britain-trying-to-give-away-the-empire/135876/9 "2002-11-08T14:21:14Z")
Well, jjim. I’m not defending the Spanish. I’m just saying what they’re doing and why. That speech is of course very biased, considering who said it. The Thing about Gibraltar is that they want it both ways. They want all the rights and liberties of the Maastricht and Schengen agrrements within the EU. But they don’t want to comply regarding taxes, banks ASF. Rememeber, they’re NOT a part of the EU, even though subject to the British Crown. Yes, the customs officials at the border are really being obnoxious, but they’re not breaking any laws or treaties. And considering the drug/illegal money traffic going on, to some extent, I think it’s quite reasonable. The few people living in Gibraltar live off the fact that it’s a tax haven. They want to keep their independant status, as it’s through that they make money. But at the same time they want to be on par with all the other nations in the EU. Bah. Spoiled brats. ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2002, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-britain-trying-to-give-away-the-empire/135876/10 "2002-11-08T14:30:53Z")
There was a treaty. It led to Civil War. > [@](#): > > From [here](http://members.cruzio.com/~sbarrett/mcollins.htm) > Still, under tremendous pressure, the Irish delegation, with Collins and Griffith as chief negotiators, pressed for a united Ireland. Differences within the Irish delegation added to the difficulty, but Britain’s refusal to consider anything less than dominion status, excluding Ulster created additional conflict. Michael Collins knew that a Republic that included Ulster was not possible under the present conditions, but he hoped for a boundary commission that would redraw the border to include much of Catholic Fermanagh and Tyrone in the newly created Free State. This left the problem of the Oath of Allegiance. > > A reworded oath might pass a Dail vote, Collins concluded, and though opposed by de Valera, would pave the way for future concessions once a British troop withdrawal was effected. Reluctantly, the delegation signed. Michael Collins knew it would be received badly in Dublin, but he decided that a step toward Irish independence was preferable to an all-out war that would ensure more bloodshed. Michael Collins spoke prophetically when, after signing the treaty he said, “…I tell you, I have signed my death warrant.” Collins was killed in the Civil War ☹ ---
**Author:** ![everton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ecb155/32.png) [@everton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/everton)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2002, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-britain-trying-to-give-away-the-empire/135876/11 "2002-11-08T16:41:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Duck Duck Goose \* > **I suppose the big difference is that Ireland never formally ceded Ulster to Britain in a treaty.** No, the big difference is that there is no possible subject for debate in Northern Ireland that would produce a vote of 187 in favour/17,900 against. ---
**Author:** ![everton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ecb155/32.png) [@everton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/everton)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2002, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-britain-trying-to-give-away-the-empire/135876/12 "2002-11-08T16:47:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Duck Duck Goose \* > **I suppose the big difference is that Ireland never formally ceded Ulster to Britain in a treaty.** No, the big difference is that there is no possible subject for debate in Northern Ireland that would produce a vote of 187 in favour/17,900 against. ---
**Author:** ![Estilicon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/848f3c/32.png) [@Estilicon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Estilicon)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2002, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-britain-trying-to-give-away-the-empire/135876/13 "2002-11-08T20:41:24Z")
Well if you only consider the wishes of the inhabitants of the Falklands (Malvinas) then you are right carnivourus. Unfortunately for your position (which is also the English Goverment position) The UN does not agree. After all the British Empire never asked the inhabitants of those islands for their wishes when they seized those islands. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2002, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-britain-trying-to-give-away-the-empire/135876/14 "2002-11-08T20:49:56Z")
Hey Guy, the USA took **ALL** of my country. ---
**Author:** ![Hemlock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Hemlock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hemlock)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2002, 7:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-britain-trying-to-give-away-the-empire/135876/15 "2002-11-12T07:54:50Z")
**Gaspode** says there’s no point to Gibraltar as a UK territory, and it costs the UK money. Strategically, it is still a potentially important base. The US would prefer it to remain under the UK. It doesn’t receive subsidies from London. What I don’t understand is why the Spanish feel a need to get so worked up about it, assuming money-laundering/smuggling are curtailed. (Same goes with the Argentine obsession with the Falklands.) They haven’t owned Gib since Maories owned NZ, Guaranis owned Argentina, etc, etc. The locals clearly don’t want to be under Spain. Why not just leave them alone? Why turn it into a national honour thing? Why not grow up? ---
**Author:** ![Charlie\_Tan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/charlie_tan/32/12582_2.png) [@Charlie\_Tan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charlie_Tan)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2002, 11:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-britain-trying-to-give-away-the-empire/135876/16 "2002-11-12T11:43:28Z")
**Hemlock**. Well, UI’ve lived next door to Gibraltar and worked as a journalist in the area, so I’ve read quite a lot about it over the years. You’re mixing things up. No Gib doesn’t receive “subsidies from London”, whatever you mean by that. However, there is an an administration, payed for på Britain: Police, Military, Post Office ASF. It has a certain strategic value, but Spain is a Nato country, and it would fall into unfreindly hands, were it to become Spanish. It’s not like giving Guantanamo back to Cuba. And I understand perfectly well why Spain is getting worked up about it. Franco died in '75. Because he was in rule during WWII, Spain was not officially in the war, although it was certainly an inofficial ally to Germany (Witnes **Guernica** ). Because it was officially outside the war, Franco was able to hang on and continue what I think is the longest, continous fascist rule during the 20th century. Had they officially allied with Germany and Italy, Franco would have died (or thorwn in jail) in '45 and Spain would have received part of the Marshall Aid. It didn’t and thus was a very poor, extremely poor country, up to '75. Had this not happened, Spain would have been as strong as Italy or France is today. Because of the Franco reign, UK didn’t give up Gib with its other colonies. And yes, the stratig value continued to be big factor till '89. But Spain is a member of Nato and EU, and with an inferiority complex and a very strong urge to “ctach up” with the rest of Europe. To them, Gib is a very powerful symbol. It would be like having the Wall still standing in Berlin, after the liberation. And make no mistake about it - Gibraltar _is_ what Beirut used to be - a place where arms deals, drug money, smuggling and other shady things go on. There are a lot, _a lot_ of rich people residing, more or less officially, on the Spanish south coast. They conduct their businesses in Gib. I personally met a drug dealer who, for a time, smuggled dope _into_ Gibraltar. The Spanish customs are only interested in things going out and the Brits are very relaxed about people going in. Once there, he could mail the drugs to his contact in Britain, it being domestic mail and not checked. I have no idea how long this scam worked, but still… So make no mistake about it - Gibraltar is an anacronism and should stop being Bretish territory. ---
**Author:** ![Charlie\_Tan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/charlie_tan/32/12582_2.png) [@Charlie\_Tan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charlie_Tan)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2002, 11:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-britain-trying-to-give-away-the-empire/135876/17 "2002-11-12T11:44:56Z")
that should read: **would NOT fall into unfriendly hands…** ---
**Author:** ![Kegg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Kegg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kegg)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2002, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-britain-trying-to-give-away-the-empire/135876/18 "2002-11-12T13:15:40Z")
Esilicon, The British did not seize the Falkland Islands, They were discovered by Captain Cook, and England took them back, after argentina tyied to seized them, ---
**Author:** ![Hemlock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Hemlock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hemlock)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2002, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-britain-trying-to-give-away-the-empire/135876/19 "2002-11-12T13:32:25Z")
[b[Gaspode\*\* - You say Spain was run by Franco, a fascist. Isn’t it “fascist” to say the Gibraltarians must be run by Spain when they don’t want it? Why can’t they choose their own government? They want to be British. Let them. No big deal. If the Spanish have an inferiority complex, that’s their problem. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2002, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-britain-trying-to-give-away-the-empire/135876/20 "2002-11-12T13:54:34Z")
**Kegg** , I suggest you check your sources on that assertion. [Here’s a start](http://www.yendor.com/vanished/falklands-war.html). This is not meant to imply that I agree with **Estilicon** , but arguing against him with misinformation is counterproductive. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-britain-trying-to-give-away-the-empire/135876.md?page=2)