# Is Bush a "dry drunk"?: a serious question, not a Bush Bash **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 21, 2003, 10:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bush-a-dry-drunk-a-serious-question-not-a-bush-bash/163062 "2003-03-21T10:29:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Largo62](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/45deac/32.png) [@Largo62](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Largo62)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2003, 10:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bush-a-dry-drunk-a-serious-question-not-a-bush-bash/163062/1 "2003-03-21T10:29:46Z")
[This link](http://www.counterpunch.com/wormer1011.html) posits a theory which I believe is serious but may be wrong. Katherine van Wormer is a Professor of Social Work at the University of Northern Iowa Co-author of _Addiction Treatment: A Strengths Perspective_ (2002). She has a Ph.D. in sociology, but not in psychology. > [@](#): > > Dry drunk is a slang term used by members and upporters of Alcoholics Anonymous and substance abuse counselors to describe the recovering alcoholic who is no longer drinking, one who is dry, but whose thinking is clouded. Such an individual is said to be dry but not truly sober. Such an individual tends to go to extremes. Any recovering alcoholics, or caregivers, family or supporters of recovering alcoholics out there who can verify this? Van Wormer links this term to President Bush thus: > [@](#): > > It was when I started noticing the extreme language that colored President Bush’s speeches that I began to wonder. First there were the terms-- “crusade” and “infinite justice” that were later withdrawn. Next came “evil doers,” “axis of evil,” and “regime change”, terms that have almost become clichés in the mass media. Something about the polarized thinking and the > obsessive repetition reminded me of many of the recovering alcoholics/addicts I had treated. (A point worth noting is that because of the connection between addiction and “stinking thinking,” relapse prevention usually consists of work in the cognitive area). Even I remembered Reagan’s “evil empire,” and as much as I disliked him I never thought he was warped by anything but wrong-headedness. I don’t know that it’s been established that GWB invented “axis of evil” or that “evil doers,” “infinite justice,” or even “crusade” in the context of the war on terror were not written for him by others. I’d like some input from Dopers on that. > [@](#): > > “Dry drunk” traits consist of: > [ul] > [li]Exaggerated self-importance and pomposity [/li][li]Grandiose behavior [/li][li]A rigid, judgmental outlook [/li][li]Impatience [/li][li]Childish behavior [/li][li]Irresponsible behavior [/li][li]Irrational rationalization [/li][li]Projection [/li][li]Overreaction [/li][/ul] > Clearly, George W. Bush has all these traits except exaggerated self importance. He may be pompous, especially with regard to > international dealings, but his actual importance hardly can be > exaggerated. His power, in fact, is such that if he collapses into > paranoia, a large part of the world will collapse with him. I agree with some of these, but are they more than opinions? > [@](#): > > To summarize, George W. Bush manifests all the classic patterns of what alcoholics in recovery call “the dry drunk.” His behavior is consistent with barely noticeable but meaningful > brain damage brought on by years of heavy drinking and possible cocaine use. All the classic patterns of addictive thinking that are spelled out in my book are here: > [ul] > [li]the tendency to go to extremes (leading America into a massive 100 billion dollar strike-first[/li]war); > [li]a “kill or be killed mentality;” the tunnel vision; [/li][li]“I” as opposed to “we” thinking; [/li][li]the black and white polarized thought processes (good versus evil, all or nothing thinking). [/li][li]His drive to finish his father’s battles is of no small significance, psychologically. [/li][/ul] Katherine van Wormer _is_ an expert on sociology, but is she right abaout this? Nothing in the article indicates her politics. Is she objective, or does she have an axe to grind? Some of you know I am not a fan George W. Bush, but I realize that he is advised by a flock of hawks, many of whom worked for his father. What say you? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2003, 10:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bush-a-dry-drunk-a-serious-question-not-a-bush-bash/163062/2 "2003-03-21T10:40:45Z")
So… she describes a pathology and then attributes it to someone without actually interviewing them? Well, **I’M** convinced. Just kidding. I don’t know if van Wormer is anti-Bush or not, but nothing in the article suggests she ever spoke to him, and I’d treat with suspicion any such remote-diagnosis. I think she suffers from what I call “Tiger Potter” syndrome. The symptoms of this syndrome include: [ul][li]Writing articles of dubious value, but making sure to include references to Tiger Woods, Harry Potter or a similarly famous name.[/li][li]Attempting to gain fame by proxy, though the sufferer may never have actually met Woods, or read Potter, or had any interaction with the famous-name subject of the article.[/li][li]When the short-term gain of including a famous name fades, syndrome sufferers typically descend back into obscurity.[/li][/ul] I only hope van Wormer isn’t a terminal case. ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2003, 10:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bush-a-dry-drunk-a-serious-question-not-a-bush-bash/163062/3 "2003-03-21T10:46:13Z")
> [@](#): > > Exaggerated self-importance and pomposity > > Grandiose behavior > > A rigid, judgmental outlook > > Impatience > > Childish behavior > > Irresponsible behavior > > Irrational rationalization > > Projection > > Overreaction You could probably attribute all of those things to lots of people. Especially those that have an outlook different to your own. I could probably find instances where the Prime Minister of my country displayed behaviour consistent with them. And the Leader of the Opposition. Heck, I could probably get the Pope with that list. That’s a long way short of proving that they have brains damaged by alcohol, or anything else. ---
**Author:** ![HPL](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3da27b/32.png) [@HPL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HPL)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2003, 10:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bush-a-dry-drunk-a-serious-question-not-a-bush-bash/163062/4 "2003-03-21T10:51:35Z")
Well, despite the infamous Drunk Driving incident 20+ years ago(That seems to be the basis of so many of the “Bush is a Drunk” comments), when did he give up drinking? I’d like to know that before I make any judgements on it. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2003, 10:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bush-a-dry-drunk-a-serious-question-not-a-bush-bash/163062/5 "2003-03-21T10:52:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Desmostylus \* > **You could probably attribute all of those things to lots of people. Especially those that have an outlook different to your own.** Heck, you could find examples on this very Message Board. ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2003, 10:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bush-a-dry-drunk-a-serious-question-not-a-bush-bash/163062/6 "2003-03-21T10:57:40Z")
That had occured to me, **Bryan Ekers**. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Scarf-Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bc79bd/32.png) [@Scarf-Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scarf-Ace)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2003, 11:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bush-a-dry-drunk-a-serious-question-not-a-bush-bash/163062/7 "2003-03-21T11:41:27Z")
If you get addicted to achohol in the first place, thats evidence enough to me that your thinking is clouded. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2003, 12:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bush-a-dry-drunk-a-serious-question-not-a-bush-bash/163062/8 "2003-03-21T12:05:22Z")
I don’t put much creedence into rhetoric whose major support is simply that its a matter of AA doctrine. AA philosophy is impassioned, but it doesn’t always bear a strong relation to the results of research on addiction. A lot of its rhetoric, particularly “dry drunk” is far too all-encompassing and unfalsifiable in my book. And being an expert on sociology is not a great sign for someone attempting to diagnose psychological conditions related to addiction. Not to mention when it is applied from afar to a public figure: a practice that is remarkably sloppy and prone all sorts of distortion. So, in summary, I don’t care if it’s an attack on Bush or not: it’s not the sort of methodology I think anyone should be happy with. ---
**Author:** ![NutMagnet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ea5d25/32.png) [@NutMagnet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NutMagnet)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2003, 12:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bush-a-dry-drunk-a-serious-question-not-a-bush-bash/163062/9 "2003-03-21T12:06:52Z")
So, what is the evidence that Bush was an alcoholic? One 24-year-old drunk-driving incident isn’t proof. > **[What Are the Risks of Substance Use?](https://www.verywellmind.com/substance-use-4014640)** > > Substance abuse can be defined as a pattern of harmful use of any substance for mood-altering purposes. Learn more about the types of commonly misused drugs. > [@](#): > > President George W. Bush, like most who decide to quit drinking, did so on his own without help, press reports following the revelation of his 1976 DUI arrest reveal. > > Most people who abused alcohol, even to a dangerous extent at some point in their lives, never fit the criteria as alcoholics, or alcohol dependent. > > For those who abuse alcohol, but who are not chemically or psychologically dependent, quitting is usually a matter of merely deciding to quit – many times prompted by a particularly painful or embarrassing incident. ---
**Author:** ![Fretful\_Porpentine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fretful_porpentine/32/2873_2.png) [@Fretful\_Porpentine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fretful_Porpentine)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2003, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bush-a-dry-drunk-a-serious-question-not-a-bush-bash/163062/10 "2003-03-21T12:45:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by HPL \* > \*\*Well, despite the infamous Drunk Driving incident 20+ years ago(That seems to be the basis of so many of the “Bush is a Drunk” comments), when did he give up drinking? I’d like to know that before I make any judgements on it. \*\* According to the linked article, he gave up drinking when he was 40, which would have been in 1986 or 1987. I’m no Bush fan, but this article sounds too much like armchair psychology for me – and as others have said, who among us _doesn’t_ display impatience, childish behavior, overreaction, etc. on occasion? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2003, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bush-a-dry-drunk-a-serious-question-not-a-bush-bash/163062/11 "2003-03-21T13:01:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Fretful Porpentine \* > I’m no Bush fan, but this article sounds too much like armchair psychology for me – and as others have said, who among us _doesn’t_ display impatience, childish behavior, overreaction, etc. on occasion? Yeah, who? C’mon tell us. Tellus tellus tellus! _WAAAAAHHH!_ Fret’s being mean to me! He’s a NAZI! [sub](I’m trying to run an irony-man triathalon)[/sub] ---
**Author:** ![SuaSponte](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/67e7ee/32.png) [@SuaSponte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SuaSponte)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2003, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bush-a-dry-drunk-a-serious-question-not-a-bush-bash/163062/12 "2003-03-21T14:31:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Meta-Gumble \* > \*\*If you get addicted to achohol in the first place, thats evidence enough to me that your thinking is clouded. \*\* I’d Pit you, but I think it would be more appropriate coming from a Doper who is a recovering alcoholic. Sua ---
**Author:** ![Fretful\_Porpentine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fretful_porpentine/32/2873_2.png) [@Fretful\_Porpentine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fretful_Porpentine)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2003, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bush-a-dry-drunk-a-serious-question-not-a-bush-bash/163062/13 "2003-03-21T14:34:28Z")
“He”? Huh, you learn new things about yourself all the time on these boards. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2003, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bush-a-dry-drunk-a-serious-question-not-a-bush-bash/163062/14 "2003-03-21T15:03:21Z")
It isn’t just 1 DWI (and Cheney has 2, let us not forget). Bush has admitted in interviews that he was a heavy drinker until the age of 40, when Laura gave him an ultimatum - alcohol or his marriage. That isn’t quite an admission of true alcoholism, but it’s close enough. It’s my experience, and YMMV, that it’s common for recovering alcoholics or drug addicts to adopt religion instead, perhaps as a simple change of addiction by an addictive personality. The loudest Bible-thumpers I know of talk about how they were going down the tubes with an addiction before being saved, and no doubt that’s how they sincerely feel. Dubya stops a little short of that in his (scripted) public statements, but he has made no real secret of his feeling that God is personally guiding him and that contrary opinions need not be considered. But the dry-drunk stuff is too much extrapolation for me. ---
**Author:** ![Early\_Out](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Early\_Out](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Early_Out)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2003, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bush-a-dry-drunk-a-serious-question-not-a-bush-bash/163062/15 "2003-03-21T15:17:55Z")
I think the theory, if anything, gives _too much_ credit to GWB. The implication is that he is solely responsible for his policies and speeches. From his occasional stabs at impromptu remarks, I think it’s pretty clear that GWB doesn’t write his own speeches (how many Presidents have, particularly since the middle of the 20th century?), and I’d say it’s a fair bet that his policies are _heavily_ influenced by the people with whom he’s surrounded himself. Maybe Cheney, Wolfowitz, and Card are the “dry drunks!” ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2003, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bush-a-dry-drunk-a-serious-question-not-a-bush-bash/163062/16 "2003-03-21T15:19:25Z")
I’m definitely no fan of Dubya, but I’ll tell ya…AA and their “dry drunk” load of crap are dangerous as well. They consider anyone who hasn’t been saved in the religious sense to be a Dry Drunk. It’s bullshit. If you’re not drinking, you’re not a drunk. Period. That said, Bush strikes me as having a bit of a Messiah Complex. I’m offended that someone in his band said something like, “What do these protestors think they’re doing? Public opinion has nothing to do with going to war!” Fuck that dry drunk crap. AA won’t be happy until everyone is carrying a bible. ---
**Author:** ![Dogface](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9d8465/32.png) [@Dogface](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dogface)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2003, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bush-a-dry-drunk-a-serious-question-not-a-bush-bash/163062/17 "2003-03-21T16:13:43Z")
Actually, I’ve encountered an atheist AA member. His version of the “higher power” is that the dynamic ability of a cooperating group is greater than what a single individual can muster. So he replaced God with “The Collective”. Brrr… ---
**Author:** ![rexnervous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e9c0ed/32.png) [@rexnervous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rexnervous)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2003, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bush-a-dry-drunk-a-serious-question-not-a-bush-bash/163062/18 "2003-03-21T16:31:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Kalhoun \* > \*\*I’m definitely no fan of Dubya, but I’ll tell ya…AA and their “dry drunk” load of crap are dangerous as well. They consider anyone who hasn’t been saved in the religious sense to be a Dry Drunk. It’s bullshit. If you’re not drinking, you’re not a drunk. Period. That said, Bush strikes me as having a bit of a Messiah Complex. I’m offended that someone in his band said something like, “What do these protestors think they’re doing? Public opinion has nothing to do with going to war!” Fuck that dry drunk crap. AA won’t be happy until everyone is carrying a bible. \*\* You have no clue, do you? ---
**Author:** ![Duke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e8c25b/32.png) [@Duke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duke)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2003, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bush-a-dry-drunk-a-serious-question-not-a-bush-bash/163062/19 "2003-03-21T17:37:11Z")
Just checking in to say one of my best and wisest friends is also an atheist AA member. His Higher Power could best be described as “the flow of the Universe.” Carry on as before. ---
**Author:** ![regurgit8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/58f4c7/32.png) [@regurgit8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/regurgit8)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2003, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bush-a-dry-drunk-a-serious-question-not-a-bush-bash/163062/20 "2003-03-21T17:46:42Z")
Aren’t A.A. members forbidden to take _anything_ mood-altering whatsoever? If that is the case, and if Bush really was on tranquilizers as was rumored after his recent press-conference, he is no longer “dry” (or “clean” or whatever you want to call it). He is already off the wagon. So this is really a non-issue. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bush-a-dry-drunk-a-serious-question-not-a-bush-bash/163062.md?page=2)