# Is Bush manipulating us again? \[Russia giving Iraqis intel on U.S. troop movements\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 25, 2006, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bush-manipulating-us-again-russia-giving-iraqis-intel-on-u-s-troop-movements/349863 "2006-03-25T16:53:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![suezeekay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/839c29/32.png) [@suezeekay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suezeekay)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2006, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bush-manipulating-us-again-russia-giving-iraqis-intel-on-u-s-troop-movements/349863/1 "2006-03-25T16:53:03Z")
Do you think the administation is making up or exaggerating the facts in the “revelation” about the Russians giving information to Iraq about troop movements during the invasion in order to yet again try to get the American people to be so afraid that we follow him blindly re: the Patriot Act and this latest revelation last night on TV about the computer system that gathers little bits of information from and about citizens and puts together two and two and often comes up with five? I have this feeling that a lot of people, especially people under the age of 30, don’t care. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2006, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bush-manipulating-us-again-russia-giving-iraqis-intel-on-u-s-troop-movements/349863/2 "2006-03-25T16:56:04Z")
GD or the Pit? GD or the Pit? GD or the Pit? _flips coin_ Moved from IMHO to GD. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2006, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bush-manipulating-us-again-russia-giving-iraqis-intel-on-u-s-troop-movements/349863/3 "2006-03-25T17:55:00Z")
> [@suezeekay](#): > > Do you think the administation is making up or exaggerating the facts in the “revelation” about the Russians giving information to Iraq about troop movements during the invasion in order to yet again try to get the American people to be so afraid that we follow him blindly re: the Patriot Act and this latest revelation last night on TV about the computer system that gathers little bits of information from and about citizens and puts together two and two and often comes up with five? I have this feeling that a lot of people, especially people under the age of 30, don’t care. Where’s the evidence any of these claims are true? ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2006, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bush-manipulating-us-again-russia-giving-iraqis-intel-on-u-s-troop-movements/349863/4 "2006-03-25T18:03:07Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Where’s the evidence any of these claims are true? From [Reuters](http://today.reuters.co.uk/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=worldNews&storyID=2006-03-24T220311Z_01_N24393034_RTRUKOC_0_UK-IRAQ-USA-RUSSIA.xml) > [@](#): > > Russia’s ambassador in Baghdad gave intelligence on U.S. military movements to Iraq’s government in the opening days of the 2003 U.S.-led invasion, a Pentagon report stated on Friday, quoting from captured Iraqi documents. > > The unclassified 210-page report by the U.S. military’s Joint Forces Command cited an April 2, 2003, document from the Iraqi minister of foreign affairs to President Saddam Hussein as stating the Russian ambassador to Baghdad had funnelled strategic intelligence on U.S. plans to Saddam’s government. > > The document was written about two weeks after the invasion but before U.S. soldiers and Marines entered the capital. > > Another Iraqi document, dated March 24, 2003, referred to Russian “sources” inside the U.S. military’s Central Command headquarters in Qatar. > > The allegations about the actions of Russia were based on captured documents from an Iraqi government on the verge of being toppled, and the report did not present any further documentation of the allegations. That’s what we know. I suppose you can claim that the documents are forged by someone, but that claim can be made of any documentary historical evidence, can’t it? ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2006, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bush-manipulating-us-again-russia-giving-iraqis-intel-on-u-s-troop-movements/349863/5 "2006-03-25T19:41:42Z")
Even beyond that, what possible advantage could be gained by manipulating public opinion against the Russians? Isn’t Putin the guy of whom Bush said he’d looked into his soul and saw a good man or somesuch? Plenty of things to get worked up about. But this ain’t one of them. If anything I’d wager the administration will try to downplay it so as to control public irritation at the Russians. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2006, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bush-manipulating-us-again-russia-giving-iraqis-intel-on-u-s-troop-movements/349863/6 "2006-03-25T19:52:13Z")
**Moderator’s Note:** Edited thread title. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2006, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bush-manipulating-us-again-russia-giving-iraqis-intel-on-u-s-troop-movements/349863/7 "2006-03-25T20:34:03Z")
> [@](#): > > Do you think the administation is making up or exaggerating the facts in the “revelation” about the Russians giving information to Iraq about troop movements during the invasion in order to yet again try to get the American people to be so afraid that we follow him blindly Well…no, not really. Do you have any evidence that the ‘administration’ (from the link it looks more like the Pentagon to me) is ‘making up or exaggerating the facts’? I really don’t see what they would gain by implicating the RUSSIANS as far as getting a freebee for the Patriot Act goes. Maybe you could flesh out your theory somewhat to show how exposing the Russians (or making stuff up about them) helps push through the Patriot Act… -XT ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2006, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bush-manipulating-us-again-russia-giving-iraqis-intel-on-u-s-troop-movements/349863/8 "2006-03-25T20:51:08Z")
A double agent or a manipulation of the Russian intelligence? [http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle\_east/4843394.stm](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4843394.stm) > [@](#): > > One piece of intelligence passed on was false, and in fact helped a key US deception effort, the report said. > > … > > Surprise attack > > The false intelligence apparently passed on by Russia concerned the date the US was likely to start its main attack on Baghdad. > > A document from the Iraqi foreign minister to Saddam Hussein, dated 2 April 2003, and quoting Russian intelligence, said the attack would not begin until the Army’s 4th Infantry Division arrived about 15 April. > > This reinforced an impression that the US military were trying to create, in order to catch Iraqis by surprise with an earlier attack, the Pentagon report said. I agree that the administration will try to downplay it but not for the reason \*\*Jonathan Chance \*\* mentions, this actually IMHO points to a level of intelligence far better than what the “it is not my fault, I had bad intelligence on Iraq” excuse that they have been trying to pass recently, it points to an example that the good intelligence was there. IOW saying “I never wanted war” looks even sillier IMHO. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2006, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bush-manipulating-us-again-russia-giving-iraqis-intel-on-u-s-troop-movements/349863/9 "2006-03-25T20:55:04Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > I agree that the administration will try to downplay it but not for the reason Jonathan Chance mentions, this actually IMHO points to a level of intelligence far better than what the “it is not my fault, I had bad intelligence on Iraq” excuse that they have been trying to pass recently, it points to an example that the good intelligence was there. IOW saying “I never wanted war” looks even sillier IMHO. Um…could you expand on this a bit? I don’t get it. I mean for decades the US was wholey focused on the USSR/Russia as THE enemy. We have poured in astounding amounts of money to penetrate their security and gain intelligency. Seems to me that we SHOULD have a much higher level of intelligence on them than on Iraq…or anyone else for that matter. Why does the fact we have high levels of intelligence on Russia mean we should have equally high levels of intelligence on Iraq (this isn’t even getting into the fact that intelligence is compartmentalized, so we may have good intelligence on one aspect of what a foreign government/military is doing, but not on others). -XT ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2006, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bush-manipulating-us-again-russia-giving-iraqis-intel-on-u-s-troop-movements/349863/10 "2006-03-25T20:55:17Z")
> [@Jonathan Chance](#): > > Even beyond that, what possible advantage could be gained by manipulating public opinion against the Russians? Weren’t the Russians implicated in some of the earlier versions of the story about Saddam shipping his WmD’s to Syria? Perhaps the pentagon isn’t ready to let that legend slip entirely from the public imagination. If they make the Russians look like bad guys over Iraq, they’ll have an easier time making the Russians look like bad guys over the Iran nuclear ‘crisis’. ---
**Author:** ![Malodorous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e47774/32.png) [@Malodorous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malodorous)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2006, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bush-manipulating-us-again-russia-giving-iraqis-intel-on-u-s-troop-movements/349863/11 "2006-03-25T21:00:13Z")
On the other hand, what advantage to the Russians get from helping the Iraqis? Did they think that if Saddam knew where the US tanks were coming from he could somehow win? > [@J Chance](#): > > Even beyond that, what possible advantage could be gained by manipulating public opinion against the Russians? Isn’t Putin the guy of whom Bush said he’d looked into his soul and saw a good man or somesuch? Same thing that’s gained by manipulating public opinion against the French. If the members of the UNSC was in cahoots with Saddam, then the Bush administration isn’t to blame for the lack of international support for the war. Not saying the Bush administration is making up the documents. But look at the Reuters report, it basically just says the Russian ambassodor told the Iraqi’s something. That leaves a lot of room for interpretation. Personally I’m skeptical the Russians gave any substantial info to a country that was pretty much doomed to loose in anycase. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2006, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bush-manipulating-us-again-russia-giving-iraqis-intel-on-u-s-troop-movements/349863/12 "2006-03-25T21:32:33Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Um…could you expand on this a bit? I don’t get it. I mean for decades the US was wholey focused on the USSR/Russia as THE enemy. We have poured in astounding amounts of money to penetrate their security and gain intelligency. Seems to me that we SHOULD have a much higher level of intelligence on them than on Iraq…or anyone else for that matter. Why does the fact we have high levels of intelligence on Russia mean we should have equally high levels of intelligence on Iraq (this isn’t even getting into the fact that intelligence is compartmentalized, so we may have good intelligence on one aspect of what a foreign government/military is doing, but not on others). > > -XT Besides the cold war being over 🙂 , indeed I also think we have a higher level of intelligence over Russia, so I do think we knew what was going on and the false information was then planted in combination with the good information, it is a classic maneuver really. Of course I do put this together with the evidence of the false torture information the administration got so conveniently to find a connection with Saddam and Al qaeda to justify war in Iraq, put that and many other pieces together and the Iraq thing is looking even less of an accident nowadays. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2006, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bush-manipulating-us-again-russia-giving-iraqis-intel-on-u-s-troop-movements/349863/13 "2006-03-25T21:51:51Z")
> [@Jonathan Chance](#): > > Even beyond that, what possible advantage could be gained by manipulating public opinion against the Russians? Isn’t Putin the guy of whom Bush said he’d looked into his soul and saw a good man or somesuch? > > Plenty of things to get worked up about. But this ain’t one of them. If anything I’d wager the administration will try to downplay it so as to control public irritation at the Russians. I do believe the Russian ambassador in question was the recipient of over a million ‘Oil for Food’ dollars. That’s about all the justification you need. From [The Times Online](http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,11069-2103093,00.html) > [@](#): > > The first document is a handwritten account of a meeting with the Ambassador in Baghdad, who in March 2003 was Vladimir Titorenko, that details his description of the composition, size, location and type of US military forces arrayed in the Gulf and Jordan. > > … > > Mr Titorenko also appears in documents released by the Volker Commission, which investigated the UN Oil-for-Food scandal, as receiving allocations of 3 million barrels of Iraqi oil worth about $1.5 million (£865,000). People really should be paying more attention to the oil for food scandal. What we have here is numeous officials in several governments being wholly corrupted by money from Iraq that was intended for the Iraqi people. It explains much. For example, there are other documents that show that Iraq was extensively involved in manipulating officials in France. Anyway, here’s a more detailed description of the documents regarding the Russian intelligence: [Russian Ambassador Gives Intelligence to Iraq](http://www.abcnews.go.com/WNT/IraqCoverage/story?id=1764979&page=1) ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2006, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bush-manipulating-us-again-russia-giving-iraqis-intel-on-u-s-troop-movements/349863/14 "2006-03-25T22:08:02Z")
The reason why I do see a “classic maneuver” is that this looked like Operation Mincemeat: > **[Operation Mincemeat](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Mincemeat)** > > Invasion > Inland > Invasion of Italy The UK is the USA now, the Spaniards the Russians, and the Germans the Iraqis. [Aside] It is still a wonder to me how the fascists in Spain were not disposed after the war when evidence surfaced they gave information to the Germans when Spain was officially neutral in WWII. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2006, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bush-manipulating-us-again-russia-giving-iraqis-intel-on-u-s-troop-movements/349863/15 "2006-03-25T22:18:54Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > It explains much. For example, there are other documents that show that Iraq was extensively involved in manipulating officials in France. The only french “official” I’ve seen appearing on the lists published so far was Charles Pasqua, a former Interior minister(\*), who had no official position at the time of the beginning of the Irak war, and who, besides, is a sworn ennemy of Chirac. So, I fail to see how he would have had any influence on France’s position. The other names I read on these lists where either unknown to me or bussinessmen. So, I’d like you to elaborate about how the documents you’re refering to explain anything at all. (\*) Who happens to be the french politician I hated the most, due to his policies, his involvment in highly dubious covert operations, the high likehood of him having been corrupt (not even counting the Iraki Oil issue), etc… ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2006, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bush-manipulating-us-again-russia-giving-iraqis-intel-on-u-s-troop-movements/349863/16 "2006-03-25T22:20:20Z")
Actually, I fail to see why any further explanation is needed, given that France had tons of reasons to be opposed to the war in Irak. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2006, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bush-manipulating-us-again-russia-giving-iraqis-intel-on-u-s-troop-movements/349863/17 "2006-03-26T00:47:36Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > The only french “official” I’ve seen appearing on the lists published so far was Charles Pasqua, a former Interior minister(\*), who had no official position at the time of the beginning of the Irak war, and who, besides, is a sworn ennemy of Chirac. So, I fail to see how he would have had any influence on France’s position. > > The other names I read on these lists where either unknown to me or bussinessmen. > So, I’d like you to elaborate about how the documents you’re refering to explain anything at all. Sorry, I forgot to cite that. [More Iraq Documents from ABC News Analysts](http://abcnews.go.com/International/IraqCoverage/story?id=1734490&page=1): > [@](#): > > \*\*“Election Campaign Laws in France” \*\* > > _Documents dated July-August 1999_ > > Correspondence regarding election campaigns in France. This includes a document from the Iraqi intelligence service classified as “secret,” ordering the translation of important parts of a 1997 report about campaign financing laws in France. It also includes a document from the foreign minister’s office indicating the report was attached. The attached translated report included very detailed information about all the regulations regarding financing of election campaigns in France. Translation was done by someone called Salam Abdul Karim Mohammed. > > \*(Editor’s Note: This is an intriguing document that suggests Saddam Hussein’s regime had a strong interest in the mechanics and legalities of financial contributions to French politicians. Several former French politicians are implicated in receiving oil vouchers from Iraq under the U.N. Oil for Food program.) \* Another interesting document, just for fun: > [@](#): > > \*\*“Hiding Docs from the U.N. Team” \*\* > > \*Document dated March 23, 1997 \* > A letter from the Iraqi intelligence service to directors and managers advising them to follow certain procedures in case of a search by the U.N. team, including: > > [ul] > [li]Removing correspondence with the atomic energy and military industry departments concerning the prohibited weapons (proposals, research, studies, catalogs, etc.) [/li][li]Removing prohibited materials and equipment, including documents and catalogs and making sure to clear labs and storages of any traces of chemical or biological materials that were previously used or stored [/li][li]Doing so through a committee which will decide whether to destroy the documents [/li][li]Removing files from computers. [/li][/ul] > The letter also advises them on how they should answer questions by U.N. team members. It says the intelligence service should be informed within one week about the progress made in discarding the documents. > > \*(Editor’s Note: This document is consistent with the Report of the Special Adviser to the Director of Central Intelligence, which described a pattern of deception and concealment on the part of Saddam Hussein’s government toward the U.N. inspectors in the mid to late 1990s. Hussein halted all cooperation with those inspectors and expelled them in October 1998.) \* ---
**Author:** ![jshore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b5e925/32.png) [@jshore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jshore)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2006, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bush-manipulating-us-again-russia-giving-iraqis-intel-on-u-s-troop-movements/349863/18 "2006-03-26T03:11:25Z")
Interesting that the “editors notes” in that ABC story reported the [incorrect claim that Saddam expelled the inspectors back in 1998](http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=1123). ---
**Author:** ![toadspittle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c0e974/32.png) [@toadspittle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/toadspittle)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2006, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bush-manipulating-us-again-russia-giving-iraqis-intel-on-u-s-troop-movements/349863/19 "2006-03-26T03:11:32Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > I do believe the Russian ambassador in question was the recipient of over a million ‘Oil for Food’ dollars. > > That’s about all the justification you need. > > From [The Times Online](http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,11069-2103093,00.html) > > People really should be paying more attention to the oil for food scandal. What we have here is numeous officials in several governments being wholly corrupted by money from Iraq that was intended for the Iraqi people. It explains much. Yes. Especially since US companies apparently received more kickbacks from it than everyone else in the world. Funny, that. > **[US 'backed illegal Iraqi oil deals'](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2005/may/17/otherparties.iraq)** > > The United States administration turned a blind eye to extensive sanctions-busting in the prewar sale of Iraqi oil, according to a new Senate investigation. ---
**Author:** ![dgswilson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c5a1d2/32.png) [@dgswilson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dgswilson)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2006, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bush-manipulating-us-again-russia-giving-iraqis-intel-on-u-s-troop-movements/349863/20 "2006-03-26T03:59:44Z")
Without listing all the reasons for my opinion. I think we the people are constantly being manipulated. Do I know all the facts in this case? No. Do I know all the facts of any cases? No. It is the nature of modern era government to manipulate. They have to try and scare us. Inflated interest over stupid stuff that doesn’t matter. Not a word about many thousands being butchered while the slight of hand crying over education and health care distracts us. That stuff isn’t even hard to do, it doesn’t take money to teach people. You or I could set up a health care system, the hard part would prying the hands off the controls. Ya gotta get beyond network corporate sponsered news to find out anything close to truth. You’re right about one thing, most people don’t want to know [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bush-manipulating-us-again-russia-giving-iraqis-intel-on-u-s-troop-movements/349863.md?page=2)