# Is Bush or most Americans aware of how hated we are ?? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 8, 2004, 10:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bush-or-most-americans-aware-of-how-hated-we-are/244165 "2004-05-08T10:52:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![scr4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2004, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bush-or-most-americans-aware-of-how-hated-we-are/244165/101 "2004-05-11T18:40:48Z")
> [@flickster](#): > > Well today’s news kind of puts an exclamation point on my view that our abuse does not equal (or ever will) their’s. Humiliation does not equal beheading. How quick do you think we’ll be hearing their apologies. > > The sooner we lay waste to these assholes and get the Hell out, the better. Maybe I shouldn’t be posting at 4:30 AM, but… Which news item are you talking about? Whose apologies are you expecting or demanding to hear? And who are you referring to as “assholes”? ---
**Author:** ![Mops](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mops/32/16494_2.png) [@Mops](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mops)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2004, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bush-or-most-americans-aware-of-how-hated-we-are/244165/102 "2004-05-11T18:48:56Z")
flickster probably refers to [http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/05/11/iraq.main/index.html](http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/05/11/iraq.main/index.html) (content may change; this URL looks generic. Headline at present is **Web site says American captive beheaded** - **An al Qaeda-linked Web site showed video Tuesday of a man who identified himself as an American and then was beheaded.** ). Sickening, and going to make a lot of people excuse torture of Iraquis ☹ ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2004, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bush-or-most-americans-aware-of-how-hated-we-are/244165/103 "2004-05-11T18:51:49Z")
> [@simple homer](#): > > …now, thanks to Bush, IMHO, most of the world seems to hate us. Are most Americans aware of how bad it has gotten ?? We don’t care because we have a back-up plan. During Republican convention in New York a caravan of camels will be “inexplicably” allowed to enter the city, set camp at Times Square, assemble a sizeable nuclear device and blow up the whole Manhattan Island. That will get rid of Bush, make US the victim again and garner four times the international sympathy we get at the best of times. All this sympathy we can really squander. But this time we won’t go after some stupid terrorists. This time we paint Antarctica red. This time we go after the penguins. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2004, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bush-or-most-americans-aware-of-how-hated-we-are/244165/104 "2004-05-11T19:07:38Z")
This looks like a perfect opportunity for the administration to start spinning about how the terrorists are evil and would have done things like this anyway. Which is true, but beside the point, since it only applies to the outright terrorists. The point is a lot of people here seem to think that people in the ME can’t get any more radicalized or hate the US any more, so that anything we do is pretty much okay because they are all a bunch of crazies anyways. Which is dead wrong. The terrorists know that it is dead wrong: that is exactly why they are staging things like this. ---
**Author:** ![flickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7bcc69/32.png) [@flickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flickster)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2004, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bush-or-most-americans-aware-of-how-hated-we-are/244165/105 "2004-05-11T19:44:31Z")
AQ & the Iraqi terrorist had the perfect opportunity to take the high road in relation to world opinion considering the quagmire the US is in over treatment of Iraqi prisoners. However, AQ does not concern itself with world opinion. Their goals are termination of free societies and they are fueled by outright hate (IMHO). We must be careful not to use a broad paint brush in painting all Iraqi citizens as having the same opinion. ---
**Author:** ![Yookeroo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yookeroo/32/323_2.png) [@Yookeroo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yookeroo)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2004, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bush-or-most-americans-aware-of-how-hated-we-are/244165/106 "2004-05-11T20:22:45Z")
> [@Martin Hyde](#): > > No, but I can tell you where to look. > > Google up polls conducted in Germany and France concerning 9/11. > > The percentage of the people that answered those polls like this, “The United States performed 9/11 on itself, for geopolitical purposes,” or the people that answered, “The United States deserved 9/11” will give you a good figure as to the percentage of people that hates the United States. > > Whenever you see one of these polls you always get somewhere from 7-20% of the respondents voting for the most anti-American option. > > I classify them as the “haters.” 1. A poll about 9/11 won’t tell us anythng about the previous 40 years. 2. You claimed 15-20%. Now it’s 7-20%. Make up your mind. 3. You made the claim, why should I have to find the cite? ---
**Author:** ![wisernow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/13edae/32.png) [@wisernow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wisernow)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2004, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bush-or-most-americans-aware-of-how-hated-we-are/244165/107 "2004-05-11T21:25:23Z")
> [@simple homer](#): > > The number one reason, and many times the only reason people want to emigrate to America is for money. > > snip > > Most of the emigrants do not think you are such a swell person, they are only after the opportunity for money. Absolutely correct! ---
**Author:** ![wisernow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/13edae/32.png) [@wisernow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wisernow)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2004, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bush-or-most-americans-aware-of-how-hated-we-are/244165/108 "2004-05-11T21:33:28Z")
> [@Evil Captor](#): > > We crushed the fourth-largest army in the world like an empty beer can – I don’t think this fact was lost on most militaristic types. ??? Which army? ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2004, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bush-or-most-americans-aware-of-how-hated-we-are/244165/109 "2004-05-11T22:08:20Z")
> [@flickster](#): > > AQ & the Iraqi terrorist had the perfect opportunity to take the high road in relation to world opinion considering the quagmire the US is in over treatment of Iraqi prisoners. However, AQ does not concern itself with world opinion. Their goals are termination of free societies and they are fueled by outright hate (IMHO). The perfect opportunity… wha? This is AQ, are you joking? Their whole purpose is to spread and incite horror, and they needed no excuses to do so. Heck, they were beheading people and murdering Americans before we even invaded Iraq: Al Qaeda’s behavior is nothing new. (of course, you can see right wing pundits almost chortling with glee that Berg was murdered so that they could change the subject from a losing battle) That’s why, maybe, it would have been a good idea to make them a priority, instead of making our priority giving them everything they ever dreamed of and more. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2004, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bush-or-most-americans-aware-of-how-hated-we-are/244165/110 "2004-05-11T23:45:05Z")
I’m just curious how many folks who believe “The United States doesn’t have to care about how other countries feel about us, we can do everything by ourselves” actually _do_ everything in their lives by themselves. Grow your own food? Make your own clothes? Walk yourself to work? Bathe in your own rainwater? Clean out your own septic pit? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2004, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bush-or-most-americans-aware-of-how-hated-we-are/244165/111 "2004-05-12T00:05:13Z")
> [@rjung](#): > > I’m just curious how many folks who believe “The United States doesn’t have to care about how other countries feel about us, we can do everything by ourselves” actually do everything in their lives by themselves. No idea what you are babbling about here. Whats this got to do with anything in this thread? Because we trade with other countries we should care enough about their opinions of our internal/external politics that we change them? :dubious: Why? Turn it around, again. Should THEY care about what WE think then, since they also buy and sell from us (and since most of ‘them’ have us as their major trading partner)? Of course not! One has nothing to do with the other. Let me put this in some perspective rjung. The other nations of the world don’t trade with us because they love us. They trade with us because they want our money or they want our goods or services. They won’t stop trading with us because they hate us (i.e. their citizens are pissed off at us). They will continue to trade with us because they want our money or they want our goods or services. If they stop trading with us, their economies (and ours) will collapse. I suppose if they get REALLY pissed off enough they MIGHT boycott our goods (and probably face retaliation). Haven’t seen much of that though, so they must not be THAT pissed at us. > [@Apos](#): > > That’s why, maybe, it would have been a good idea to make them a priority, instead of making our priority giving them everything they ever dreamed of and more. Definitely agree, if you are refering to us going into Iraq. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2004, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bush-or-most-americans-aware-of-how-hated-we-are/244165/112 "2004-05-12T04:38:39Z")
> [@flickster](#): > > Well today’s news kind of puts an exclamation point on my view that our abuse does not equal (or ever will) their’s. Humiliation does not equal beheading. How quick do you think we’ll be hearing their apologies. > > The sooner we lay waste to these assholes and get the Hell out, the better. OK, how close to beheading someone should we come, since you seem to think that it is OK for us to abuse as long as ours less than theirs? If you honestly believe that picking up and abusing or torturing, or whatever, persons A, B, C, and D is an adequate response to the actions of the entirely differenct persons W, X, Y and Z then I guess we don’t have a lot to discuss. ---
**Author:** ![Voodoochile](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/898d66/32.png) [@Voodoochile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voodoochile)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2004, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bush-or-most-americans-aware-of-how-hated-we-are/244165/113 "2004-05-12T05:07:25Z")
Well, its not as if americans arent concerned only about the opinions of people in other countries. Very many of us also arent concerned about the opinions of other americans. Individualism is a large part of american culture, and a large part of individualism is ‘be yourself and screw what other people think’. I dont understand why anyone would think americans would react differently to world opinion than they would to local opinion. If people in the local area all have a negative opinion of someone, its not uncommon and its rather admired for that person to ignore it and flaunt the very things that the locals make fun of or dislike. The attitude of many in the US towards the opinion of other countries just reflects this same attitude seen locally at an individual level all over. Ive been to europe a few times, and yes Ive run into negative attitudes from europeans. Just as Ive been to the widwest many times and run into negative attitudes from midwesterners. And in either case, I dont care. Im not going to apologize for anything Im not ashamed of, or for anything I dont see as wrong. Im just as proud of being from the US when Im in europe as I am from being from California when Im in the midwest. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2004, 7:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bush-or-most-americans-aware-of-how-hated-we-are/244165/114 "2004-05-12T07:17:40Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > No idea what you are babbling about here. Whats this got to do with anything in this thread? How about, “You arrogant Americans can fight your own damn ‘war on terror’”, for starts? Kinda hard to get international support against terrorists if you end up pissing off your own allies. Broadly speaking, there’s just no rational reason for the whole cock-eyed “we don’t care what others think of us” attitude. It doesn’t matter if we’re talking trade, or terrorism, or global warming, or whatever – the idea that the United States can accomplish its goals by recklessly snubbing 9/10ths of the planet is laughably juvenile. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2004, 10:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bush-or-most-americans-aware-of-how-hated-we-are/244165/115 "2004-05-12T10:02:08Z")
> [@rjung](#): > > Broadly speaking, there’s just no rational reason for the whole cock-eyed “we don’t care what others think of us” attitude. It doesn’t matter if we’re talking trade, or terrorism, or global warming, or whatever – the idea that the United States can accomplish its goals by recklessly snubbing 9/10ths of the planet is laughably juvenile. You’ve got a point. Even if we could do it all by ourselves it would be much easier if we could work with others to accomplish common goals. Personally I don’t think the United States does all that bad a job of working with other nations to attain goals. While I recognize the importance of foreign attitudes towards the United States those attitudes must take a back seat to what we believe the right thing to do is. Marc ---
**Author:** ![iamme99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/57b2e6/32.png) [@iamme99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamme99)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2004, 10:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bush-or-most-americans-aware-of-how-hated-we-are/244165/116 "2004-05-12T10:48:55Z")
> [@rjung](#): > > How about, “You arrogant Americans can fight your own damn ‘war on terror’”, for starts? Kinda hard to get international support against terrorists if you end up pissing off your own allies. > > Broadly speaking, there’s just no rational reason for the whole cock-eyed “we don’t care what others think of us” attitude. It doesn’t matter if we’re talking trade, or terrorism, or global warming, or whatever – the idea that the United States can accomplish its goals by recklessly snubbing 9/10ths of the planet is laughably juvenile. Looks like the Vatican and the Italians are joining the bandwagon. > [@](#): > > **Iraq abuse bigger blow for US than Sept 11-Vatican** > 12 May 2004 09:15:55 GMT > > ROME, May 12 (Reuters) - The abuse of Iraqi prisoners by U.S. soldiers represents a bigger blow for the United States than the September 11 attacks, the Vatican’s foreign minister was quoted as saying on Wednesday. > > Archbishop Giovanni Lajolo told La Repubblica daily the scandal would fuel Arab hatred for the West and by extension for Christianity. > > “The torture? It’s a bigger blow for the United States than September 11. The thing is that this blow wasn’t inflicted by terrorists but by Americans against themselves,” Lajolo said. > > The Italian archbishop said the prison controversy made it even more important for the United Nations to intervene in Iraq and for Washington to hand over powers to Iraqis. > > [Full article](http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L12472524.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2004, 11:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bush-or-most-americans-aware-of-how-hated-we-are/244165/117 "2004-05-12T11:31:00Z")
> [@iamme99](#): > > Looks like the Vatican and the Italians are joining the bandwagon. Given the nature of the Vatican to protect sexual abusers maybe the UN should intercede there as well. Marc ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2004, 11:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bush-or-most-americans-aware-of-how-hated-we-are/244165/118 "2004-05-12T11:38:45Z")
> [@wisernow](#): > > ??? Which army? [Iraq.](http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/iraq/army.htm) Of course, their army is much smaller now. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2004, 11:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bush-or-most-americans-aware-of-how-hated-we-are/244165/119 "2004-05-12T11:40:02Z")
> [@iamme99](#): > > Looks like the Vatican and the Italians are joining the bandwagon. Yeah, the Vatican can speak with REAL moral authority on sexual abuse, with their fine record … :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2004, 11:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bush-or-most-americans-aware-of-how-hated-we-are/244165/120 "2004-05-12T11:52:06Z")
> [@Evil Captor](#): > > Yeah, the Vatican can speak with REAL moral authority on sexual abuse, with their fine record … :rolleyes: Your quite correct. The same can be broadly said about the US and any other nation on this planet so it kinda loses it’s strength. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bush-or-most-americans-aware-of-how-hated-we-are/244165.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-bush-or-most-americans-aware-of-how-hated-we-are/244165.md?page=7)